When putting together water profiles in Bru’n Water, I use it to adjust Mg level before calculating the additional SO4 needs, which I make up with Gypsum. But I wonder how many just ignore the Mg. What’s your opinion? Is there any benefit to using it, is it better to leave it out, or does it not make a difference either way?
Fairy dust. If you are building your water from distilled, then you need to use a tiny amount, like 1/10 to 1/8 of a teaspoon for 5 gallons. The yeast needs just a trace amount of magnesium for good health. It’s really not helpful at all for pH control. If you are using any raw water at all, then you can safely skip the magnesium addition altogether. It does not help beer flavor at all and tastes horrible.
Oh Dave! It does help beer flavor, but only in bitter and hoppy beers.
If you are creating a pale ale style beer and want to have a high sulfate content, then using epsom salt to boost the sulfate without boosting calcium is a very good idea. Excessive calcium is NOT beneficial to yeast or brewing.
For most other beer styles, magnesium is optional. Another thing to be aware of is that at levels below about 10 ppm, Mg is not really notable in flavor.
I’ve got a lot of calcium in my water, so my last couple of attempts I’ve brought up the sulfates as much as possible with Epsom salt, keeping magnesium at 30ppm or less, and making up the rest with gypsum. I’ve been really happy with the results since going to this method, as opposed to using straight gypsum. Don’t know what I’d do without Mr. Brungard’s spreadsheet!
I used to ignore it. Theoretically, you get enough Mg from the malt itself. IIRC, Mg is mainly necessary for yeast health and appropriate levels of Mg help keep the yeast in good shape for repitching. But lately, trying to keep my Ca levels down, I’ve started supplementing SO4 levels with Epsom, also. I really like the results. I think it “rounded out” the beer flavor, however you can describe that.
related, so hopefully not a total threadjack, but what is the detriment of having too much calcium in your water? I ask because I typically boost my hoppy beers to 300ppm+ of sulfate with gypsum. My last IPA was not my favorite, and I’m trying to pinpoint what went wrong (currently, my money is on what others on here have referred to as my “misplaced” distaste for Maris Otter in American hoppy beers…)
My understanding was that ‘excess’ Ca was ok as long as it was added through an anion (like gypsum) to the water.
[quote=“Pietro”]related, so hopefully not a total threadjack, but what is the detriment of having too much calcium in your water? I ask because I typically boost my hoppy beers to 300ppm+ of sulfate with gypsum. My last IPA was not my favorite, and I’m trying to pinpoint what went wrong (currently, my money is on what others on here have referred to as my “misplaced” distaste for Maris Otter in American hoppy beers…)
My understanding was that ‘excess’ Ca was ok as long as it was added through an anion (like gypsum) to the water.[/quote]
Martin has talked about this on the AHA forum. IIRC, the main issue is interaction with high chloride levels. But the takeaway was that 50 ppm was plenty for ales and even less for lagers. Apparently (I have faith he’ll correct me here if I’m wrong!) the main thing Ca does is aid in clearing the beer. Since you’re going to be lagering lagers (DUH!) that will promote clearing on its own. I went to using epsom to supply some of the SO4 to reduce the amount of CA when I wanted a high sulfate level. I definitely like the results.
He also has a recommendation to not go over 100 ppm calcium, and since I’m at 50 ppm with my base water it doesn’t take much to get over 100ppm. Don’t know why that’s the recommendation, but Denny’s response sounds pretty good to me.
[quote=“Denny”][quote=“Pietro”]related, so hopefully not a total threadjack, but what is the detriment of having too much calcium in your water? I ask because I typically boost my hoppy beers to 300ppm+ of sulfate with gypsum. My last IPA was not my favorite, and I’m trying to pinpoint what went wrong (currently, my money is on what others on here have referred to as my “misplaced” distaste for Maris Otter in American hoppy beers…)
My understanding was that ‘excess’ Ca was ok as long as it was added through an anion (like gypsum) to the water.[/quote]
Martin has talked about this on the AHA forum. IIRC, the main issue is interaction with high chloride levels. But the takeaway was that 50 ppm was plenty for ales and even less for lagers. Apparently (I have faith he’ll correct me here if I’m wrong!) the main thing Ca does is aid in clearing the beer. Since you’re going to be lagering lagers (DUH!) that will promote clearing on its own. I went to using epsom to supply some of the SO4 to reduce the amount of CA when I wanted a high sulfate level. I definitely like the results.[/quote]
Denny(or Martin) what is the maximum amount of Mg (ppm) you would go to? Martin says flavor is not detectable below 10ppm. Porkchop says he goes to 30ppm.
My water has 39ppm Ca and 21 S. I’ve been using gypsum to get to about 250ppm S for my IPAs but that pushes my Ca to 150+. Using Epsom could help me reduce that Ca level.
The upper limit I recommend for Mg is 40 ppm, but I don’t take my PAs or IPAs there. 20 ppm is all I target and I don’t think that its anywhere near a detriment. The 30 ppm level should still be fine.
Epsom salt will help avoid that high calcium level and that can help avoid premature yeast flocculation and a potentially problematic ferment. If you find that your yeast poop out too soon, a review of calcium level should be the first order of business (OK, second order of business since underpitching is the first).
I’m really glad I asked the question; I’ll keep on using Epsom and maybe even use it more. I was unaware of the link between Ca levels and flocculation. That might explain the problems I had with the last pale ale I brewed, which I bumped up the gypsum levels higher than I had before in an attempt to make the bitterness sharper and instead it came out a bit off with a somewhat muddied hoppiness. Thanks for all the replies.
Martin, what causes the yeast to flocculate early if the calcium is too high? Does it want to fall out of solution and bring the yeast with it?
Thanks!
Maybe it’s just me, but these water threads rock.
[quote=“porkchop”]Martin, what causes the yeast to flocculate early if the calcium is too high? Does it want to fall out of solution and bring the yeast with it?
Thanks!
Maybe it’s just me, but these water threads rock.[/quote]
+1 not just you
[quote=“dannyboy58”][quote=“porkchop”]Martin, what causes the yeast to flocculate early if the calcium is too high? Does it want to fall out of solution and bring the yeast with it?
Thanks!
Maybe it’s just me, but these water threads rock.[/quote]
+1 not just you[/quote]
Amen and me too.
Haven’t tried the beers yet, but I made a dunkel and marzen recently and used Epsom salt only for sulfates. It allowed me to forego the gypsum. I used the “amber malty” profile in Bru’n Water for both, and I was able to get everything really close to the target profile with Epsom, canning salt, and calcium chloride.
Hopefully I won’t have any off flavors from the magnesium, but they ended up around 25 in both these beers. With eliminating gypsum, I could keep the calcium under 80 ppm, with the target in the amber malty profile at 55 ppm. Looking forward to trying these in a couple of months!
The Ca for the Pale Ale profile is 140. I know Martin is chiming in here intermittently, I’m curious why it’s so high for Pale Ale while all other profiles seem to keep it around the 50-60 range.
[quote=“porkchop”]Martin, what causes the yeast to flocculate early if the calcium is too high? Does it want to fall out of solution and bring the yeast with it?
[/quote]
In general, yeast resist flocculation as long as there are enough sugars (manose, maltose, glucose, sucrose) in the wort. However, calcium in the wort has the effect of enhancing flocculation. The yeast more readily agglomerate (stick together) in the presence of higher calcium content solutions. If those yeast started sensing that the sugars were running out and the calcium was high, that could cause those yeast to drop out of suspension while there was still work to do.
In the case of Burton beers, the very high natural calcium content of that water produced beers that were revered for their clarity. That is a nice by-product of high calcium, but the case above shows that your ferment may not go as well in some cases. There are many yeast strains that are very flocculent in the first place and they might be the ones that you should consider backing off the water’s calcium content to help avoid the problem mentioned above.
The Pale Ale profile has very high Ca content due to our desire to also have a lot of sulfate in that water. That sulfate anion has to be paired with some cation. You generally have the choice of Ca, Mg, or Na cations. Since Na and SO4 don’t taste very good together, your choices are functionally limited to Ca and Mg. The Epsom salt use in the Pale Ale profile is desirable since it avoids adding too much Ca while boosting the SO4 to the high levels often desired in a Pale Ale. You just can’t add too much Mg either since it can have negative taste effects as its concentration in water exceeds 40 ppm.
Enjoy!
Thank you for the explanation!
If I can continue the (brief) derailment, can you recommend a practical upper limit for sodium as well? For a malty beer where one wouldn’t be as concerned with Na and SO4 clashing, I could certainly add more chloride to the water using pickling salt without increasing calcium via CaCl2. I see you reference a range of 0-150ppm with a guideline to keep it at 50ppm or less. I’ve been a little shy of using too much, though - is the 50ppm below a flavor threshold, where I shouldn’t be too concerned about going up to this level? Again, this would be a great way to control the calcium additions, but I’m worried about taking it too far.
Sodium is an interesting brewing water component. It has it’s place and I think the common perception was to always keep it low. My thinking has evolved and allowing higher sodium content is OK in some cases.
Sodium becomes apparent to most tasters at a concentration of around 250 ppm in water. Interestingly, that is about the level that Gose brewers bring their beers to in order to produce the characteristic flavor of the style, sweet, not salty. Of course, all the other ions (except chloride) are at low levels and there are no flavor ‘clashes’.
Another case in point is the groundwater in central London. That water has long been a little ‘salty’ with moderately high sodium (110 ppm) and chloride (190 ppm). It was the basis of the Porter style and was reputed to make the finest tasting porters anywhere. I’ve made a brown porter with that water and it was very nice. It melded with the roast, nicely. So, this is more evidence that sodium can be OK.
The problem with sodium rises when sulfate is at medium to high content. Under that condition, there are multiple resources that state that this condition is flavor negative. Not wanting to ruin a whole batch, I’ve never experimented with that combination. I guess I should ‘salt’ a glass full of my next pale ale and see if there really is a negative flavor effect. But in the absence of evidence, this is an area to avoid. This is when you should keep sodium at 50 ppm or less.
[quote=“mabrungard”]Sodium is an interesting brewing water component. It has it’s place and I think the common perception was to always keep it low. My thinking has evolved and allowing higher sodium content is OK in some cases.
[/quote]
My municipal water supply as tested by Ward Labs was found to range from 69-92ppm. I was always happy with my stouts and porters, but unhappy with the consistency of a lot of my other beers. When I switched to 100% distilled, the consistency and quality of all of my beers improved except stouts and porters. I found that they suddenly lacked the depth of flavor I wanted and had previously experienced with municipal water.
I won’t get into why unless someone is particularly interested, but last December I decided to brew a stout that would intentionally exceed the recommended sodium level in Brun’Water for the Black Malty profile. I went for 60ppm. Of course this also meant a higher chloride level since I used table salt to increase sodium. I am very pleased with the outcome. Much deeper and more complex flavor than I had experienced since switching my water source.
Finished water profile:
Calcium 70.50
Magnesium 0.00
Sodium 60.30
Sulfate 66.36
Chloride 92.95
Bicarbonte 130.43
