I'm a Biere de Garde newbie

For whatever reason I’m not a big fan of that style but it seems like in the back of my mind I read someplace that you can ferment with a lager yeast or am I just full of the stuff that makes the grass grow green? Anyway, when it comes to naming the brew you can work the word “surrender” in there somehow; even if you don’t end up caring for the beer you’ll probably get a laugh anyway. :smiley:

I agree 100%! 3711 is a fantastic Saison yeast, but I wouldn’t use it in a BDG.

And yes, for the style it is very acceptable to use a larger yeast. You definitely want a cleaner yeast that doesn’t give off the heavy esters like most Belgian strains.

I’m aware of what wyeast says about describing their yeasts. I find it odd that my batches using 3711 had no spiciness nor any clove - I’m glad to see you have a chance to try some beers made with it. The finish is the silkiest I know of. The yeast companies, both Wyeast and Fermentis, don’t have the most accurate descriptions of their products. I’ve felt ideal ferment temps are posted a bit high by both companies and I’ve had a number of wyeast write ups that don’t line up with my experience. Perhaps my tongue is impaired from too much Captain Crunch as a kid, but if you can try a beer made with it for yourself, I think you’ll be pleased.

I’ll agree with the silkiness of 3711. Like an oil slick in your mouth… but in a good way. I also agree about the average temp suggestions. I routinely ferment American yeast (1056, 1272, etc) lower than they recommend. I like to ferment those around 58-62F, at least for the first few days.

It’s funny you mention cereal. My brew club had a cereal beer competition 2yrs ago. We have maybe 7-8 groups. Each given a different cereal to mash with. Some turned out very well. Some not so much. My group made a Cinnamon Toast Crunch Munich Dunkel. We were very happy with the final product.

There are some encouraging comments
http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp072-french-ale
about the White Labs 072 French Ale strain. My buddy does not have any beers made with 3711 on tap or currently finished so I won’t have the chance to sample a beer made with it… at least not at the moment. I mentioned to him that I would rather waste the $6 vial of WLP011 than use it in a batch, spend the time brewing and lose all of the ingredients and time as well. If WLP011 is 1338, I think I know the yeast and do not care for it. Although I don’t know the WLP072 either so… this is a tricky assignment. Everyone’s tastebuds are different!

I found this quote from the article you linked interesting:

Kind of reminds me of the great stout/porter debates.

I was looking at the BJCP guidelines between the two. Bier de Garde comes in a bit stronger and is described as having a bit more of a malt presence. The BJCP does talk about the silky finish of a bier de garde.
I admit I’ve said too much on this, but it has been interesting to think about. I guess my final thought would be that perhaps 3711 would attenuate too much. Malt presence isn’t something you mentioned, but 3711 eats up just about everything and BJCP guidelines - for what their worth - suggest that malt presence, along with higher abv and aging, is what differentiates the two. 3711 won’t leave much of a malt presence or any semblance of malty sweetness IMHO.

Best of luck with your decisions and post back how it all shakes out.
:cheers:

[quote=“jtb”]I found this quote from the article you linked interesting:

Kind of reminds me of the great stout/porter debates.

I was looking at the BJCP guidelines between the two. Bier de Garde comes in a bit stronger and is described as having a bit more of a malt presence. The BJCP does talk about the silky finish of a bier de garde.
I admit I’ve said too much on this, but it has been interesting to think about. I guess my final thought would be that perhaps 3711 would attenuate too much. Malt presence isn’t something you mentioned, but 3711 eats up just about everything and BJCP guidelines - for what their worth - suggest that this, along with higher abv and aging, is what differentiates the two.
Best of luck with your decisions and post back how it all shakes out.
:cheers: [/quote]
I found that same piece of the article interesting because the BJCP guidelines do suggest that the BdG is maltier and cleaner than a saison, but the dry finish is supposed to be there in both styles. I also probably would not ferment my BdG higher… if anything I would ferment it lower. I know that goes against the style but I just happen to like cleaner beers. I will post a final recipe and notes once it’s brewed and sampled. Thanks for the replies.

I wonder if 3726, Wyeast’s Farmhouse Ale yeast would be a good consideration – it doesn’t devour things as much as 3711 and can be quite neutral in flavor when fermented at low temps. I used it to make a Saison d’ Noel (NB recipe) that, in my opinion, produced a nice malty, clean beer.

In fact, now looking at the Wyeast private collection website, I see that they list BdG as a beer appropriate for 3726.

I’m interested to hear your recipe and results since I’ve been wanting to brew this beer as well, but been disappointed with the few commercial products on the market. Incidentally, I do like the Belgian style and fermenting some of the Belgian yeasts at high temps, but also like an occasional departure from the style.

[quote=“Antwerp”]I wonder if 3726, Wyeast’s Farmhouse Ale yeast would be a good consideration – it doesn’t devour things as much as 3711 and can be quite neutral in flavor when fermented at low temps. I used it to make a Saison d’ Noel (NB recipe) that, in my opinion, produced a nice malty, clean beer.

In fact, now looking at the Wyeast private collection website, I see that they list BdG as a beer appropriate for 3726.

I’m interested to hear your recipe and results since I’ve been wanting to brew this beer as well, but been disappointed with the few commercial products on the market. Incidentally, I do like the Belgian style and fermenting some of the Belgian yeasts at high temps, but also like an occasional departure from the style.[/quote]
Thanks for the suggestion of 3726. I will look into it. I have spoken with a number of other brewers who told me they used WLP011 and did not care for it… not a great endorsement. I’m considering waiting now and making this beer with WLP072 French Ale when it comes out in May. I also read a number of other reviews and articles on BdG and one of the things they mention is that is can have a bit of a “toasty” flavor to it which sounds like some biscuit might be in order. So I will update this thread when I have the recipe & yeast ready to roll and I’ll also update it once I brew it and sample it. Thanks again to everyone who contributed here. I feel like I’m in deep water with this style because I don’t know much about it. Cheers.

As you are not a big fan of Belgians (and farmhouse ales may be too closely related for you), maybe this suggestion is a moot point, but your interest in BdG now has me wanting to re-read that section of Phil Markowski’s book, “Farmhouse Ales”. I think this book is likely a definitive look into the farmhouse styles. Seems to me that these beers have mutated from a utilitarian beer to current beefed up “styles” approaches. Having said that, there’s something in what I’ve read about the general BdG style that makes me want to try it. Certainly, I’ve been very pleased with my forays into the Saison world. (My guess is that you might enjoy a Wyeast 3711 Saison with generous hops – a number of my “hop head” friends really liked my NB “petite saison” despite the fact that I fermented quite warm – around 80F.) Looking forward to your updates.

I don’t know if I linked to it earlier, but HERE
http://allaboutbeer.com/article/bieres-de-garde-frances-road-less-traveled/
is a great article about that region, the brewing history and some of the overlap of styles. I have to admit that I find all of the homework I have done on this style fascinating because I have been an American, German and English style brewer for a long time and this walk into French and/or Belgian styles is out of character for me. But this started when I picked up some off-the-map hops (for me) and some people that know my tastes suggested that I make a BdG because it’s clean but still ‘different’. I think the term “Farmhouse Ales” is starting to encompass a lot of different styles.

Weird. Today I was listening to a random BN podcast and they were discussing farmhouse ales.
I think you and I brew the EXACT same beers, but this podcast got me thinking about brewing some low 3% house beers with pilsner malt, some Belgian caramel malts, and some Belgian yeast at clean lower temps.

But chances are I’m going to go to mylhbs and stand there in front of the yeast cooler and slowly grab a lager yeast for a little house lager :slight_smile:

[quote=“brewingdan”]Weird. Today I was listening to a random BN podcast and they were discussing farmhouse ales.
I think you and I brew the EXACT same beers, but this podcast got me thinking about brewing some low 3% house beers with pilsner malt, some Belgian caramel malts, and some Belgian yeast at clean lower temps.

But chances are I’m going to go to mylhbs and stand there in front of the yeast cooler and slowly grab a lager yeast for a little house lager :slight_smile: [/quote]
BD: You and I have very similar tastes, for sure. I’m sure there are some things I might make that you wouldn’t or vice-versa but I will say this… all Belgians are toxic to my tastebuds. At least the ones I have tried. It seems wrong to put the Disneyland of beers off the map but every time I try one of these beers, I just have a problem with the flavor. Bold, spicy, complex, clove-like, barnyard, phenolic, winey, horse blanket, bubble gummy, etc. It’s possible that I might just have to realize that Belgians are not my thing. I have a buddy who makes Belgians frequently and I have already asked him to let me know when he has something available for me to taste so I can match the flavor with the strain so I can tell if I like it or if I should scratch it off my list. BD, if you try to make anything with one of these nutty strains of yeast, would you please let me know your findings? I’m looking for any usable information because I don’t really want to make 5 gallons of beer and then ruin it with yeast I’m not familiar with. Also, this style was suggested to me by brewers that know my tendencies so I think the style is good but I just need the right yeast.

Have you ever tried Trappistes Rochefort 6 or 8?

To my knowledge, no. Can you describe what they taste like?

It’s been awhile, but I’ll give it a go.
Rochefort has three beers: the 6 (7.5% abv), 8 (9.2% abv), and 10 (11.3% abv). They get darker and stronger as you go up the ladder. I’d suggest you check out the 6. You can check the ingredients for the 8 - more or less - by looking at NB’s Number 8.

I have only tried the 8. It is a tricky beer as it is strong, but you’d never know it. It is dark, but it doesn’t taste dark. It’s free of much of the baggage (or whatever the masses call it) associated with crazy belgian funk. It has a superlative finish It’s pretty well carbed and by the time you’re done with a bottle, you’re not in the same place you were when you started.

Those are pretty lame tasting notes. It gets rave reviews and can usually be purchased by the single bottle. I can’t recall the exact size of the bottle, but I bought just a single smallish one - about 12 oz.

I suggest it primarily because it is a great example of a “clean” belgian beer.

Having said that, I made a helles that is perhaps one of the best beers I have ever made. My father-in-law was in town, so I tapped the keg prematurely. It’s not “ready” for another week yet. Well, after my father-in-law left, I managed to not touch it for a week. I poured a small taste just to make sure it was still there and to my displeasure some of the residual 3711 was in that glass (I’d had NB’s Petite Saison d’Ete in the keg previously - and I did a thorough job of cleaning the keg and flushed the lines with an oxyclean solution etc. etc.) ANYWAY I poured another glass and everything was just fine - the lager flavor I’d been hoping for was back. I share that with you as my taste buds went from expecting lager to getting lager + a bit of 3711 and then back to the lager flavor I was anticipating. In that context, 3711 was not so pleasant as a good helles is so clean that anything off is glaring. Given your mastery of and appreciation for lagers, I thought perhaps this 3711 is funkier than I thought, but that saison was so good, clean and rerfreshing in its own way . . . I came to the conclusion that a lot of this tasting stuff rides on our expectations of what we think we’re getting.

Perhaps if you could read a bunch of TinTin, eat some fine chocolates and sit in some old belgian pub on yet another rainy day - all belgian beers would suddenly make sense.

The Rochefurt 6 is an easy and inexpensive experiment if you have a liquor store that sells the singles nearby.

You may also want to look at NB’s ingredients list for the Petite Saison d’Ete. The grain bill and hops should all be pretty familiar to a guy who loves his lagers and british ales.

Thanks jtb. You and I are on the same page as far as ‘expectations’ and your tastebuds are concerned. I have gone from one of my clean lagers over to one of my clean ales and thought, “Ugh, what is WRONG with this beer?”. It’s just because my tastebuds were used to the clean lager and weren’t ready for the bigger, carmelly and more estery ale. I do have a store that sells bottles individually so I will check out the Rochefort 6 if I can find it. But let me go back to something I mentioned earlier… I asked a bunch of beerheads which Belgian beer would be a good gateway beer for me and they mentioned Leffe Blond. I tried it and did not care for it. They said, “Then you’ll never like Belgian beer!”. Do you agree with that?

No.
Leffe, kwak, chimay - I like 'em, but for one to say if you don’t like Lefe, you won’t like belgian beers is a bit like saying if you don’t like Bud, you won’t like american beers. Those three don’t really have that refreshing quality I’m thinking you’d like.

I find lagers lovely. There are few beers as refreshing. Lift Bridge Brewery’s Farm Girl, the Petite Saison d’Ete are two beers that while belgian/french in style, are as refreshing as lagers. So they get to refreshment by different streets. The belgians I like have yeast that is highly attenuative (most belgian strains have that in common). That’s perhaps the big difference between the way the two styles achieve refreshment. Lagers give you clean, crisp yet some malt presence. Saisons achieve crisp and clean through attenuation - this creates a dry finish that, when done right, is also amazingly good at hiding alcohol flavors. I think the belgians call this a “digestive” quality.

I’m sorry I’ve moved the conversation away from bier de garde. My understanding is that style will give you more malt flavor than a saison - but again, I am intrigued by there being little differentiation between the two by locals.

This is a difficult exercise - if it’s a hot day - a really hot day and I NEED a beer, to me a saison is better than a lager - it’s all about the finish. If there is a pool or lake nearby, lagers are perfect - cause I already have some relief from the heat.

Can you tell someone has cabin fever?

When I bought the little Rochefort 8, I shared it with a guy whose go to beer is Corona Light. He was thinking he’d hate it and liked it alot - I figure the six could be even more pleasant.

I don’t know how far Lift Bridge distributes - they’re out of Stillwater, MN - I’d highly recommend their Farm Girl and while I’m at it I like their Chestnut Hill Brown ale. Better still is to blend the two and make what the locals call a “chesty girl.” :wink:

One more to add to the list if you can find it: Blanche de Bruxelles - it’s a wit bier - the slight cloudiness might put you off as one who prides himself on beautifully clear beers- but again I think it’s hard not to like. It’s sold in the can in the hoity toity liquor stores around here.

I’m a little late to this discussion, but I’ll add my comments anyway.

I agree with Shadetree and others who say that saison and belgian yeasts are not appropriate in a BDG. Well, “appropriate” may not be the right word. Let’s just say that, in my opinion, BDGs should be made with other yeasts. Like 1007, as was suggested earlier, or maybe even WL515 Antwerp Ale. Or WL072, which I have never used but which I understand doesn’t have much of the belgiany or saisony characteristics. Or even a warm fermented lager yeast. I don’t know if they still do, but this host used to sell a BDG kit with the Wyeast 2112 Cali lager yeast.

Linguistically, “guarde” means to age or put away (or something like that). I don’t know how true this actually is, but I like to think that back in the olden days a BDG was a malty-ish beer, made with french ingredients (grains, hops, etc.) that was put in the cellar like a french wine so that it took on a cellaring, aged terroir. I think that this is probably the most defining characteristic of the style, but also the hardest to duplicate in a homebrew.

I’ve tried several attempts at making a BDG. I’ve done the Northern Brewer kit with 2112. I’ve tried my own recipes with 1007, and with warm fermented lager yeast (IIRC, 2124 at about 58F). And yes, even though I say it isn’t appropriate, I’ll admit that I’ve even tried it with saison yeast. I liked the saison versions the least. I didn’t enter every single BDG in competition, but I will also admit that my highest scoring BDG was actually one where I blended about 80% Dunkel and 20% saison, then entered it as a BDG. I didn’t set out to brew a BDG that time, but the blend seemed to work as a BDG so I entered it to see what judge’s comments I would get.

Hope this helps.

[quote=“sl8w”]I’m a little late to this discussion, but I’ll add my comments anyway.

I agree with Shadetree and others who say that saison and belgian yeasts are not appropriate in a BDG. Well, “appropriate” may not be the right word. Let’s just say that, in my opinion, BDGs should be made with other yeasts. Like 1007, as was suggested earlier, or maybe even WL515 Antwerp Ale. Or WL072, which I have never used but which I understand doesn’t have much of the belgiany or saisony characteristics. Or even a warm fermented lager yeast. I don’t know if they still do, but this host used to sell a BDG kit with the Wyeast 2112 Cali lager yeast.

Linguistically, “guarde” means to age or put away (or something like that). I don’t know how true this actually is, but I like to think that back in the olden days a BDG was a malty-ish beer, made with french ingredients (grains, hops, etc.) that was put in the cellar like a french wine so that it took on a cellaring, aged terroir. I think that this is probably the most defining characteristic of the style, but also the hardest to duplicate in a homebrew.

I’ve tried several attempts at making a BDG. I’ve done the Northern Brewer kit with 2112. I’ve tried my own recipes with 1007, and with warm fermented lager yeast (IIRC, 2124 at about 58F). And yes, even though I say it isn’t appropriate, I’ll admit that I’ve even tried it with saison yeast. I liked the saison versions the least. I didn’t enter every single BDG in competition, but I will also admit that my highest scoring BDG was actually one where I blended about 80% Dunkel and 20% saison, then entered it as a BDG. I didn’t set out to brew a BDG that time, but the blend seemed to work as a BDG so I entered it to see what judge’s comments I would get.

Hope this helps.[/quote]
Good stuff there, thank you. This beer is still on my radar and the recipe I put together has been printed out and is sitting about 2 feet from me right now. I wanted there to be a good amount of information to sift through before I made a decision so I appreciate any and all responses in this thread. My current strategy is to wait until WLP072 is released and use that because it seems like the yeast that will work the best in this style for me. When I was a new(er) brewer, I used any and all yeasts without regard for my tastebuds and I made a lot of beer that I did not think was good… mostly because of the choice of yeast. I kept good notes on what yeast strains I like and which ones I do not and I admit that my brewing (and the yeasts I choose) has been in sort of a box because I stick with what I like. I use a lot of 1056, 1272, 1764, 1028, 1099, 1968 for ales and I have my stable of lager yeasts which I know well. But this is one reason I wanted to make this beer and get outside my box a little bit. But… I don’t want to get so far outside my box that it results in pouring 5 gallons down the drain. I have this WLP011 Euro ale yeast now but so many brewers have winced and made a face when I mention it… I don’t think I want to risk it. I was talking to one brewing buddy recently and when I mentioned WLP011, he gave me something like this…
:lol: