Effects on bicarbonate in brewing water

Northern Brewer General
41

Ken, you’ve taken a peek at the chemistry visuals on Kai’s site, right? I know you said you weren’t a science/chemistry guy, but if you want to stretch yourself, this really will be insightful:

In the first image, naturally occurring potassium phosphates (KPO4) on the malt are dissociating into their ions (K+ & HPO4–)in the mash solution.
[attachment=1]Water_chem_malt.gif[/attachment]

Then, in the second image, the insight: Calcium ions (Ca++) in the mash will react with the phosphate ions (HPO4–) to precipitate out of solution, leaving behind the phosphate’s hydrogen ion (H+) as a result of the reaction … The only chemistry you need to know at this point is leftover hydrogen ions result in a more acidity, or will (eventually) after they react with all available bicarbonates (HCO3-) into water & carbon dioxide (not pictured).
[attachment=0]Water_chem_acidification.gif[/attachment]

This is how you can add gypsum or CaCl2–which are not acidic–to the mash and yet observe a drop in pH. In contrast, when you are adding lactic (or other) acid, you’re essentially straight-up injecting free hydrogen ions (H+) into the mash, converting the bicarbonates into CO2 & water, and therefore bypassing this otherwise cool chemistry!

Apologies/thanks to Kai for lifting the images from his site. I’ve learned so much from him.

42

[quote=“Denny”][quote=“Ken Lenard”]On the one hand I find all of this water information fascinating but to be honest… I’m just interested in great beer. Perfectly made beer. Also, I’m not a science person in any way, shape or form. When Martin, AJ or Kai start with the formulas, fancy talk and $10 words, I check out. But some of this information is necessary because otherwise I won’t be making that great, perfect beer. You can see the bind I’m in! :lol:

Cheers Beerheads! :cheers: [/quote]

Man, I SO understand![/quote]
+1! The interdependent nature of all the factors is what gets me… fixing or altering one aspect can easily cause something else to go out of whack.

43

Forget about boiling to remove alkalinity/bicarb, adding acid achieves the same result. BUT, depending an how much acid you add there are some flavors that come along for the ride. Our water being similar, I like a 50:50 cut with distilled to minimize this for lagers.

Your process sounds pretty sound. When you say you add acid to the sparge if it’s high, what do you mean? I acidify sparge to pH of 5.7 aiming to get pre boil pH to 5.4 or so and post boil of 5.2. When keeping salt additions minimal like with lagers, some beers will need acid at pre boil to get this low if not acidifying sparge. Kai’s Edel Hell demonstrates this. Dave Miller taught me to acidify sparge, any works of his in that bunker? :smiley:

Icky, many ways to skin this cat you just need to find out what works for you. To me, focusing on pH drives it all.

44

Great stuff guys. SilentKnyght, thanks for that. Yes, I have visited Kai’s site many times and appreciate all of the laborious work he has done on behalf of all the people still learning out there. Thanks to Kai. The graphics make perfect sense and I do get that. I should probably go back to his site for the rest of it.

Ickyfoot: I get your point. Touch one thing over here and now that thing over there is different. NOOOO! I try my best to keep it simple. My goal here is to find the right combination for various styles or color ranges and just brew. Cheers Beerheads!

45

[quote=“zwiller”]Forget about boiling to remove alkalinity/bicarb, adding acid achieves the same result. BUT, depending an how much acid you add there are some flavors that come along for the ride. Our water being similar, I like a 50:50 cut with distilled to minimize this for lagers.

Your process sounds pretty sound. When you say you add acid to the sparge if it’s high, what do you mean? I acidify sparge to pH of 5.7 aiming to get pre boil pH to 5.4 or so and post boil of 5.2. When keeping salt additions minimal like with lagers, some beers will need acid at pre boil to get this low if not acidifying sparge. Kai’s Edel Hell demonstrates this. Dave Miller taught me to acidify sparge, any works of his in that bunker? :smiley:

Icky, many ways to skin this cat you just need to find out what works for you. To me, focusing on pH drives it all.[/quote]

I get my recipe set and my additions and water composition set beforehand. I work up the water and additions in EZ_Water or BruNWater. I get the mash started, check the temp and pH and if the pH is slightly high (it’s always high if it’s off… never low), I use a small dropper marked in milliliters and add a small amount of lactic acid and check the pH again. Honestly, a couple drops is sometimes enough. At the end of the mash, I run off the mash liquid and add the sparge water (I’m a batch sparger) and then check the pH of the sparge+grains. If it’s high (it’s never low), I will add acid again, check, etc. until it’s 5.2 - 5.3. Then runoff again and possibly check preboil but my guess is that if mash pH is good and sparge pH is good, preboil pH is good. That’s my process.

46

Do you have a common 2-row base malt you use, Ken?

I’m curious why your pH is always higher than you would otherwise predict. I use Rahr (them being local & all), and Denny just commonted elsewhere on this site that Rahr pre-acidifies their malt to a small degree… which would explain what’s going on with my pH being regularly, slightly lower than predicted.

If you’re using your own tap water, have you gotten a recent water sample? I have two water samples 18 months apart, and they are 50-60ppm different in their bicarbonate concentrations, which was enough to explain why my pH predictions were off in the beers brewed just prior to the second sampling.

47

Wow! I just tried the opposite experiment. I have used 300 ppm sulfate for about a decade in my APA’s and AIPA’s and I’ve really enjoyed them. But AJ kept harping that great PA’s could be made with much lower sulfate. So I tried it. Brewed my standard SNPA clone with 100 ppm sulfate instead of 300 ppm. I just took the dose of gypsum out to reduce the level to 100 ppm and left all the other ions at their regular levels.

The result is a fine beer and its quite clean and still bitter. But its immediately apparent that this beer doesn’t dry out in the finish like the previous batches have. That does reduce the overall bittering perceptions slightly and shifts the balance toward the malt. I have to say that it still came across as an APA, but the maltiness was off-putting. I’ve mixed in a little gypsum in the glass and the improvement was immediate (well, as soon as the gypsum dissolved).

So with no disrespect to AJ, I have to say that he is quite wrong on the issue of sulfate in hoppy beers. You can make a good APA with low sulfate, but you can’t make a great one. The drying finish is a hallmark of high sulfate.

In an important way, this experiment substantiated the sulfate/chloride ratio effect. But I contend that its not really a malty versus bitter effect as stated for the ratio. I feel its a malty versus drying effect. I had brought this idea to AJ a year or two ago, but he discounted it. At this point, I feel he is incorrect. Given his propensity to malty European Lagers, his inclination toward chloride water chemistry is understandable and his palate preferences seem apparent. Fortunately, there are plenty of palates that appreciate a little more drying and balance. Given the success of German Pils and the prevalence of modest sulfate in those beers, I have to dispute an advocacy that sulfate is not acceptable in some styles or with some hops.

I still don’t feel that I’m into really high sulfate like Colin Kaminski and I certainly don’t advocate the low sulfate advice of AJ Delange. But it was interesting that I was seated between Dr. Chloride and Mr. Sulfate on the Water Panel at last year’s AHA conference. I am middle of the road on this issue. The sulfate/chloride ratio is a tool for helping to shape the finishing quality in beer. Of course, that ratio is only appropriate in a narrow range that I’ve described as when chloride content is between about 25 and 100 ppm.

Brew On!

48

Martin: Great stuff. For APA beers that I want to have that snap, I will boost sulfates a bit. For those styles, it seems to be a necessary component but I would still say that it’s all in the brewer’s (and drinker’s) preferences. Thanks for jumping in here and also in the HBT thrad.

SN: I have gotten my numbers tested by Ward Labs only one time. I have heard that water profiles change and so on our LOCAL BOARD
http://www.free90free.com/peshchat/
, we have had this discussion and there are people from the Chicago area and Milwaukee area and we all use the same water. As someone else gets their water tested, they post the results and they are ALWAYS very close. Wisconsin’s water treatment may differ from Illinois but the results are Uber-close. There is a large treatment center called the Northwest Water District and they appear to be very intent on keeping things as consistent as possible. As long as they don’t go to chloramines, I’m good. I could send another sample to Ward Labs just to be sure but with so many other locals submitting their water and getting numbers within 1 or 2ppm on a consistent basis, I’m not losing sleep over that point. Cheers.

49

So, do you check pH at all of these points, as well as mash, at least for new recipes? And, how about finished beer? I’ve read that finished beer should be in the 3.9 - 4.5 range (assuming that refers to pre-carbed pH). Is that correct, and is it worth checking? Meaning, can it alert me to problems upstream if pH is outside that range on bottling day?

Also, I never acidify my sparge water, and I have no idea what my water’s natural pH is, although I suspect it’s close to 7 since it’s so soft; if I find that it’s high for sparging, what is the best acid to use to bring it down without affecting flavor? And, should I calibrate my sparge acidification to account for the fact that I make my gypsum additions to the boil (because mash pH is usually right on)? Finally, does adding gypsum to the mash vs. the boil have implications for flavor or is it a 6/half dozen issue?

Sorry for the barrage y’all :wink:

Very interesting insight…I hadn’t thought of it that way, but it makes sense. For me, as I have added more gypsum to my IPA, the change has come across as kind of bringing the hops/bitterness into greater clarity, similar to using Photoshop’s “sharpen” tool on a slightly blurry photo. I think that’s consistent with the idea that gypsum dries out the finish, pulling the malt profile down and letting the hops stand out in greater relief, so to speak, although I think the change is evident up front as well as in back.

50

I’m really digging this thread.

I’ve always looked at the ratio to SO4 to Cl, never just the ppm levels.

My water is balanced with 24ppm SO4 and 26ppm Cl.

I’ve always hesitated to spike up the SO4 levels (though I almost never make APA’s or hoppy beers), but now I’m tempted to just because.

To get my SO4 up to 300ppm, would be adding 19 grams or 4.75tsp to my total 10gallons of mash/sparge water!!

Wow!

Now I just need a nice proven APA recipe to experiment this on…

51

BD: Yeah, I’m thinking the beer would taste like alka-seltzer or something. You and I like the same styles and probably have similar beer preferences overall. Also, our water (in terms of chloride and sulfate) are very similar… my sulfate is 27 and my chloride is 21. I would hesitate to add spoonful after spoonful of gypsum to my beers but I’ll just say right now that I’m open minded and if someone had a killer APA or IPA that used that water profile and I liked the beer, I would be a believer.

Icky: Adding things to BK can cause the pH to fluctuate so I get your question but I’m not sure how to respond. For me, I use CaCl and CaSO4 to adjust the water profile for the style, to boost calcium into the 40-50ppm range and also to lower pH in the mash. But lowering pH in the mash is my last concern because I have Mr. 88% Lactic Acid standing by to help me with that goal… and the goal of getting the mash pH correct is of high importance for sure. Also, I mentioned this before (I think) but Kai has some stuff on his site regarding pale worts being boiled at the correct and also the incorrect pH. Pale-colored worts that are boiled at the right pH are clear and gold. The higher pH worts ended up grayish (much darker) and hazy. For that reason, I check the pH of my batch sparge water. Sometimes that water will be 100% filtered tap water, other times it’s diluted. It’s occasionally just a few ticks high and I knock it down with lactic acid. If I’m paranoid or making a Helles or Pilsner where I really want the color and clarity to be their best, I may take the pH of all the collected wort before I boil to ensure it’s correct. There are other acids but the 88% lactic acid seems to be common for homebrewers to use and I can’t see ever using so much that it would cause flavor issues.

Also… has anyone ever heard brewers or beerk geeks use the term “flabby” as it relates to beer profile? In another discussion, we concluded that a “flabby” beer was one that was brewed with an overall high pH in the mash, sparge and/or boil. Beers that are flabby usually lack crispness and that acid SNAP you expect from a beer. I may be getting precariously off-topic but I thought it was relevant here. If someone else has an interpretation of ‘flabby’ that is different than mine, please LMK. Cheers.

52

Hrm…so, the issue with high sparge pH is tannin extraction, yes? Is this as much of a concern with batch sparging? If so, maybe the answer for me is to add gypsum to the sparge water and, if pH is still high, use lactic acid to get it down the rest of the way. That way I’m both controlling sparge pH and observing how the gypsum additions are affecting things. Will adding to the sparge water instead of the boil affect the flavor contributions of the gypsum?

Also, incidentally, my water’s chloride : sulfate is 5 : 1 (35ppm : 7ppm). It takes about a 1/2 teaspoon of gypsum in 7.5 gallons of wort to hit the low end of balanced, and 1 teaspoon to hit the high end of balanced (all according to Palmer’s spreadsheet). This actually makes me less skittish about experimenting with more than 2 teaspons in a full batch…

Never heard the term “flabby” in this context before…hard to reconcile that with beer (well, unless we’re talking the possible long-term effects on my body :wink: )

53

Ken, I use the term flabby in relation to beer just the same way you do.

54

[quote=“ickyfoot”]Will adding to the sparge water instead of the boil affect the flavor contributions of the gypsum?
[/quote]
I think that adding to the sparge or the BK is similar in that you’re getting ‘flavor’ from the addition as if you were sprinkling your food with salt. But I assume adding gypsum to the sparge is also helping your pH as you suggested and since your water is leaning towards chloride, I also assume that adding gypsum is a good idea rather than chloride. I have done some silly things with chloride as well… like diluting my tap water and then adding a bunch of chloride but no sulfate. This is actually a good idea for very pale beers like pilsner but for amber-colored beers you end up with a very malty & round profile that lacks crispness. We could all brew once a week for the next year and come back here to have this same discussion and there would still be 10 pages of stuff… this area of brewing has a lot of variables and promotes A LOT of discussion… which is a GOOD thing. Cheers.

That I’m gaining weight and getting flabby or that the beer was brewed with a high pH? :lol:

55

Sorry to interrupt.

This thread (and the others linked here) make me feel really dumb! :?

But I guess, last year when I started reading this forum, I had the same feeling. So maybe in time, I will kind of understand this as well. :cheers:

Back to this in depth discussion.

56

So, do you check pH at all of these points, as well as mash, at least for new recipes? And, how about finished beer? I’ve read that finished beer should be in the 3.9 - 4.5 range (assuming that refers to pre-carbed pH). Is that correct, and is it worth checking? Meaning, can it alert me to problems upstream if pH is outside that range on bottling day?

Also, I never acidify my sparge water, and I have no idea what my water’s natural pH is, although I suspect it’s close to 7 since it’s so soft; if I find that it’s high for sparging, what is the best acid to use to bring it down without affecting flavor? And, should I calibrate my sparge acidification to account for the fact that I make my gypsum additions to the boil (because mash pH is usually right on)? Finally, does adding gypsum to the mash vs. the boil have implications for flavor or is it a 6/half dozen issue?[/quote]

I haven’t done any checks in some time but I did it long enough to get a feel of what to expect. Martin’s Bru’n Water has kinda put in me on autopilot. That said, acidifying sparge water gets me fairly close to where I want. Do yourself a favor check final pH, I bet it is a revelation. My sparge water is 5.7 always and I add calcium to the boil. Not trying to make this confusing but the calcium which is added at mash does NOT make it to the boil. Remember it gets converted to acid…

I find phosphoric acid the be well regarded as the most neutral tasting. Both mash or boil salt additions will have a flavor impact, but this depends on how much is added. Salt additions in the sparge don’t help with pH. IMO batch sparge is no different than fly relative to pH. Others disagree, but I have the data to prove it WITH MY WATER 120ppm bicarb. IMO soft water or not you must either acidify sparge or acidify preboil to get down to the accepted pH mentioned above.

I’ve heard flabby before but most ofter hear the term “flat” even though it’s carbonated… If some of you are concerned about this, tell me have you ever compared you beer’s pH with a commercial equivalent?

Can you make good beer without regard to all this water business. Sure; Can you make better beer with learning more about it, no doubt… Is there a possibility you can ruin your beer by fooling with this stuff too much, absolutely, I’ve done that too.

57

[quote=“Ken Lenard”]

That I’m gaining weight and getting flabby or that the beer was brewed with a high pH? :lol: [/quote]

Well, both, but I was thinking of myself, not you!

58

So, do you check pH at all of these points, as well as mash, at least for new recipes? And, how about finished beer? I’ve read that finished beer should be in the 3.9 - 4.5 range (assuming that refers to pre-carbed pH). Is that correct, and is it worth checking? Meaning, can it alert me to problems upstream if pH is outside that range on bottling day?

Also, I never acidify my sparge water, and I have no idea what my water’s natural pH is, although I suspect it’s close to 7 since it’s so soft; if I find that it’s high for sparging, what is the best acid to use to bring it down without affecting flavor? And, should I calibrate my sparge acidification to account for the fact that I make my gypsum additions to the boil (because mash pH is usually right on)? Finally, does adding gypsum to the mash vs. the boil have implications for flavor or is it a 6/half dozen issue?[/quote]

I haven’t done any checks in some time but I did it long enough to get a feel of what to expect. Martin’s Bru’n Water has kinda put in me on autopilot. That said, acidifying sparge water gets me fairly close to where I want. Do yourself a favor check final pH, I bet it is a revelation. My sparge water is 5.7 always and I add calcium to the boil. Not trying to make this confusing but the calcium which is added at mash does NOT make it to the boil. Remember it gets converted to acid…

I find phosphoric acid the be well regarded as the most neutral tasting. Both mash or boil salt additions will have a flavor impact, but this depends on how much is added. Salt additions in the sparge don’t help with pH. IMO batch sparge is no different than fly relative to pH. Others disagree, but I have the data to prove it WITH MY WATER 120ppm bicarb. IMO soft water or not you must either acidify sparge or acidify preboil to get down to the accepted pH mentioned above.

I’ve heard flabby before but most ofter hear the term “flat” even though it’s carbonated… If some of you are concerned about this, tell me have you ever compared you beer’s pH with a commercial equivalent?

Can you make good beer without regard to all this water business. Sure; Can you make better beer with learning more about it, no doubt… Is there a possibility you can ruin your beer by fooling with this stuff too much, absolutely, I’ve done that too.[/quote]

Yep, it’s all about your own water. With my water I find that sparge pH adjustment is seldom necessary.

59

So, do you check pH at all of these points, as well as mash, at least for new recipes? And, how about finished beer? I’ve read that finished beer should be in the 3.9 - 4.5 range (assuming that refers to pre-carbed pH). Is that correct, and is it worth checking? Meaning, can it alert me to problems upstream if pH is outside that range on bottling day?

Also, I never acidify my sparge water, and I have no idea what my water’s natural pH is, although I suspect it’s close to 7 since it’s so soft; if I find that it’s high for sparging, what is the best acid to use to bring it down without affecting flavor? And, should I calibrate my sparge acidification to account for the fact that I make my gypsum additions to the boil (because mash pH is usually right on)? Finally, does adding gypsum to the mash vs. the boil have implications for flavor or is it a 6/half dozen issue?[/quote]

I haven’t done any checks in some time but I did it long enough to get a feel of what to expect. Martin’s Bru’n Water has kinda put in me on autopilot. That said, acidifying sparge water gets me fairly close to where I want. Do yourself a favor check final pH, I bet it is a revelation. My sparge water is 5.7 always and I add calcium to the boil. Not trying to make this confusing but the calcium which is added at mash does NOT make it to the boil. Remember it gets converted to acid…

I find phosphoric acid the be well regarded as the most neutral tasting. Both mash or boil salt additions will have a flavor impact, but this depends on how much is added. Salt additions in the sparge don’t help with pH. IMO batch sparge is no different than fly relative to pH. Others disagree, but I have the data to prove it WITH MY WATER 120ppm bicarb. IMO soft water or not you must either acidify sparge or acidify preboil to get down to the accepted pH mentioned above.

I’ve heard flabby before but most ofter hear the term “flat” even though it’s carbonated… If some of you are concerned about this, tell me have you ever compared you beer’s pH with a commercial equivalent?

Can you make good beer without regard to all this water business. Sure; Can you make better beer with learning more about it, no doubt… Is there a possibility you can ruin your beer by fooling with this stuff too much, absolutely, I’ve done that too.[/quote]
Everything you just typed should be on a t-shirt. I realize it will take up the front and the back but that’s okay. :stuck_out_tongue:

I agree… zone in on your own water, favorite beer styles and the adjustments you have to make for those areas and see what happens. There are great benefits for getting this stuff right.

[quote=“ibeentired”]Sorry to interrupt.
This thread (and the others linked here) make me feel really dumb! :?
But I guess, last year when I started reading this forum, I had the same feeling. So maybe in time, I will kind of understand this as well. :cheers:
Back to this in depth discussion.[/quote]

But the Homer in your avatar looks very smart. :expressionless:

60

Great feedback, thanks zwiller.

Actually, I think it will be harder to stop checking than to start after this thread :wink:

Yeah, I’ve read that in numerous places, especially about sparge Ph, but I’ve avoided that so far in the name of simplicity and the oft-noted fact that you can make good beer without worrying about any of this stuff. But, I think I’m ready to roll another step into the process in pursuit of greatness :cheers:

That’s a big part of why I’ve been so cautious about salt additions. I hate moving beer from storage to the fridge because I don’t want to see my supply dwindle…can’t imagine how I’d feel pouring it down the drain… :shock:

Yeah, I don’t currently make any adjustments to pH because the only pH measurement I take at the moment (mash) indicates that it’s unnecessary. I’m going to follow the same principle with any/all other adjustments.