I have been on an odyssey over the past couple of years attempting to get the right water profiles for various styles. I recently found out that some bulk RO water I was using was not as low in TDS and bicarbonate as I thought so from now on I will be using distilled water to dilute my bicarbonate-heavy tap water. Martin Brungard had commented on a Pils thread in the recipe forum and it made me think of bicarb and what it actually does when you make a pale or amber-colored beer. From experience, I know it creates a harsh finish in the beer. Another guess is that it messes with your ability to get the beer clear. The beers where I have lowered the bicarb level with distilled water seem to come out clearer. Also, it seems that bicarb can wreak havoc on head formation and stability. The lower the bicarb, the better, cleaner and clearer the beer becomes, IMO. What other effects does a high bicarb level have on the final beer?
Ps. The bicarb level in my source water is 138ppm and I make a lot of beers between 5 and 12 SRM. Cheers.
Thanks for link Ken. Great read. Yep, it isn’t really bicarb but how it affects pH.
That TDS reading had to be an eye opener. I hope now that you are using distilled water you see an improvement. It’s kinda funny I was jealous of you guys living in big cities getting a deal on RO water while I paid like $1 gallon for distilled…
You might actually be brewing enough to justify a RO system.
[quote=“zwiller”]Thanks for link Ken. Great read. Yep, it isn’t really bicarb but how it affects pH.
That TDS reading had to be an eye opener. I hope now that you are using distilled water you see an improvement. It’s kinda funny I was jealous of you guys living in big cities getting a deal on RO water while I paid like $1 gallon for distilled…
You might actually be brewing enough to justify a RO system.[/quote]
I thought about that for about 1 day. But I don’t want to go through that, waste water, deal with changing filters, etc. There is a small brewpub in southern WI that has such bad water that they needed an in-house RO system. The system is so slow that it takes 2 days for them to fill their MT. Ugh. I am fine looking at various stores for the best price on gallons of distilled water. I just buy them when I see them on sale and try to accumulate them as best as possible. I have 14 gallons at the moment and the best part is that I will know exactly what’s in my water regardless of the dilution rate. I couldn’t say that before so it’s a very good feeling. Cheers!
I am with you on the RO system… It’s a waste to me too, but I brew like 80% IPAs. That said, I am craving a real hoppy dry NGP and when it’s on deck I’ll cave and grab some distilled.
We have water delivered to my office for our cooler in 5G plastic carboys (better bottles) and it is a bit cheaper than per gallon at stores but less easy to work with. Maybe you can find a commercial source, just a thought.
138ppm? You lucky dog… I have to cut mine in half with RO just to get to 138:)
I find water fascinating. Paying attention to it has made a very significant difference in my brewing. Can’t wait for the new water book to come out this year. I will have to check out the thread you linked.
[quote=“Braufessor”]138ppm? You lucky dog… I have to cut mine in half with RO just to get to 138:)
I find water fascinating. Paying attention to it has made a very significant difference in my brewing. Can’t wait for the new water book to come out this year. I will have to check out the thread you linked.[/quote]
I know… I have a bud in Indiana whose bicarb is 400+ so I get it. The rest of my water is actually pretty good but the bicarb can get in the way. I completely agree that getting the water just right for the style can make all the difference in the beer. Cheers Beerheads.
Would anyone on this thread be willing to share what you believe to be an “ideal” water profile for pales and IPA’s? I’m curious about other factors such as calcium, sulfates, etc. Thanks in advance.
Oh, I do want to (re)confirm something (or have it shot to sh!t):
My water report includes a line for “Alkalinity” in general, not bicarbs in particular, and uses mg/L instead of ppm. That row says:
Alkalinity – mg/L – 33 (yearly average) 40 (high) 26 (low)
My understanding is that mg/L is close enough to ppm to consider that a reasonable gauge.
When I was first going all grain last year, I did a bunch of research/posting here until I came to the conclusion that I’m OK with bicarbs, since the general number is so low. I have exceptionally soft water in all respects (Calcium mg/L: 15.5, 22.9, 11.6 | Magnesium mg/L: 5.0, 6.0, 3.8 | Sulfate mg/L: 6.8, 13.0, 4.6), and pH has been a total non issue for beers ranging from ~8 to ~20 SRM. Still, I don’t like the general nature of the report. Is it worth sending to lab to get a reading specifically on bicarbs?
[quote=“ickyfoot”]Oh, I do want to (re)confirm something (or have it shot to sh!t):
My water report includes a line for “Alkalinity” in general, not bicarbs in particular, and uses mg/L instead of ppm. That row says:
Alkalinity – mg/L – 33 (yearly average) 40 (high) 26 (low)
My understanding is that mg/L is close enough to ppm to consider that a reasonable gauge.
When I was first going all grain last year, I did a bunch of research/posting here until I came to the conclusion that I’m OK with bicarbs, since the general number is so low. I have exceptionally soft water in all respects (Calcium mg/L: 15.5, 22.9, 11.6 | Magnesium mg/L: 5.0, 6.0, 3.8 | Sulfate mg/L: 6.8, 13.0, 4.6), and pH has been a total non issue for beers ranging from ~8 to ~20 SRM. Still, I don’t like the general nature of the report. Is it worth sending to lab to get a reading specifically on bicarbs?[/quote]
I think it could be useful to send it to Ward Labs if you question it. The mg/l and ppm numbers (I believe) are compatible. AJ often quotes things in mg/l and I think he told me that it’s the same as ppm. Also, in one of the spreadsheets (I think it’s EZ_Water), you can hit a button where you select either BICARBONATE or ALKALINITY and then that number is carried out throughout the rest of the sheet. So you could enter yours as ALKALINITY and hit that button.
Even if you don’t completely digest Bru’N’Water, the water profiles in tab 3 are nice to have. It shows quite a few of the “Great Brewing Waters Of The World” type stuff like Dublin, London, Plzen, etc. but it also has generic ones like “Yellow Balance”, “Amber Bitter”, “Brown Malty”, etc. and each profile shows you where your water numbers should be for calcium, magnesium, sodium, chloride, sulfate and bicarbonate. But I should warn you that these are just guidelines and your tastebuds may not agree. I am starting to realize that I am not a big fan of giant amounts of sulfate. I like malty and balanced beers, generally. In some of his profiles, the sulfates are set quite a bit higher (and at a higher ratio) than I would like, personally. So you have to adjust to those variables. I can’t tell you how many batches of beer I have made with varying water profiles. Some have been great. Some (many, actually) have been dumped. I’m just now getting to the point where I can dilute and make additions for various styles and have them come out stellar. It’s been a winding road to say the least. Many thanks to AJ, Martin and Kai along with many others who know more about this subject than I do. Cheers.
Hrm…I used Palmer’s spreadsheet back when I was first learning about all of this, and it uses “Alkalinity as CaCO3”. Never did determine if that’s the same as just “Alkalinity”. At any rate, I feel pretty confident that my bicarbs are quite low since my alkalinity is so low, and my pH is generally in range sans salt additions to the mash even for my brown ale (~20 SRM). Still, I may hit up Ward Labs just because I like overwhelming myself with data and then trying to forge it into information .
On a related side note, I’ve often read that Ca should be up at 50ppm or greater, and mine is significantly lower than that (15.5 mg/L). What kinds of ill effects might that have?
[quote=“ickyfoot”]Hrm…I used Palmer’s spreadsheet back when I was first learning about all of this, and it uses “Alkalinity as CaCO3”. Never did determine if that’s the same as just “Alkalinity”. At any rate, I feel pretty confident that my bicarbs are quite low since my alkalinity is so low, and my pH is generally in range sans salt additions to the mash even for my brown ale (~20 SRM). Still, I may hit up Ward Labs just because I like overwhelming myself with data and then trying to forge it into information .
On a related side note, I’ve often read that Ca should be up at 50ppm or greater, and mine is significantly lower than that (15.5 mg/L). What kinds of ill effects might that have?[/quote]
The good thing about sending the water to be analyzed is that you’ll know what’s in the water for sure. It could fluctuate, of course but at least you’ll have an idea. As far as calcium goes, these rock stars have said that nothing will happen at 50ppm that can’t happen at 40ppm so I sort of take that as a new threshold. Calcium is beneficial for yeast health and mash activity but it’s also helpful in beer clarity. I’m a clear beer freak so I pay attention to that part.
Well, I have yet to run into problems with fermentation, so I’m thinking yeast health is OK?
I also hit 100% conversion a few times before taking a break from July - Dec, although some of those mashes were 75 - 90 minutes. I may have had a little trouble with recent mashes converting, but I can’t tell if that’s a procedural issue (i.e., not draining fully before batch sparging, obscuring what may have been a full conversion), a temp issue (old thermometer was measuring 8* above actual temps, so 152 = 144), or something with the bio-chemical mash dynamics. I think it’s not the latter, but we’ll see over the next few batches.
I do like clear beer, but it’s other things are taking priority at the moment.
[edit]Sorry, didn’t meant to knock this off the bicarb track…
[edit]Sorry, didn’t meant to knock this off the bicarb track…[/quote]
Hey, it’s all in the name of better brewing and you can’t discuss the effect of bicarbonate on brewing if you don’t discuss all the other stuff. It’s all good.
The thing that gets me (and I’m sure I mentioned this in the other thread) is that homebrewers exchange recipes all the time but rarely talk about water. I suppose it’s possible that good brewers just know what to do with their water based on style but I don’t see newbies or intermediate brewers talk water either… maybe they’re just not sure to ask about it. I have a lot of recipes on my site and I get site comments, emails and PMs all the time from people who say they have brewed this or this recipe from my site but they never talk about water. You have to assume the some recipes could come out stellar or brutal based on the water. I consider water to be the last frontier in brewing. Once you have a feel for grains, hops, yeast, recipe formulation, mash technique, sanitation, etc., water composition has to be right in order for the beer to be REALLY GOOD. And hey… if we’re going through the trouble of making our own beer, don’t we want it to be the very best???
Heh…go figure I became slightly obsessed with water as I was preparing to go AG, and that was after only 4 extract brews over my first ~2 months of brewing. It’s definitely a lot to wrap your head around, particularly if you’re trying to learn the ins and outs of AG at the same time. I think it’s reasonable advice to ignore water issues if they are scaring a new or intermediate brewer away from AG. That said, I wouldn’t do it differently if I could start over. It helps that my water is super soft and that it can naturally accommodate my favorite styles (pale ales and light-medium brown ales).
I suspect that by the time I explore water in more depth, which will probably happen when I want to make a stout or get into lagering, I will be on the advanced side of intermediate. But, I can’t imagine getting to where I am without any knowledge of how water chemistry plays into all this.
I agree and I think this is probably why you don’t see many new or intermediate brewers commenting or asking about water. And like you suggested the brewers who are experienced with it probably already have their preferred water profile for a given beer style, or are using a spreadsheet like Bru’n Water and just going by that. I would fall into the latter category right now, still getting my feet wet and mostly relying on Bru’n Water for guidance. I will say that I’m really starting to see the difference water can make in certain beers and look forward to learning more. After all when “learning” involves making and drinking beer you just can’t lose.
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