I am just dipping my toes in as well. I have been brewing with RO water for a long time and just adding quite a bit of Gypsum and salt to my mash and sparge water. After using Brun’water, I need much less of each and a little bit of other stuff but I have yet to taste the results
Most of the big water guys have told me that calcium chloride and gypsum are the two big ones that you need for water adjustment. That, and an acid of some sort. I keep 88% lactic acid on hand for when my water profile is ‘accurate’ but my pH needs to get knocked down a couple tenths of a point. I have heard that chalk (calcium carbonate) is big if you have soft water but want to make stouts. I am at the other end… I have a bit of bicarbonate but most of my styles are on the pale-colored end so I don’t need it. Also, magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) is almost never required unless you like the flavor of it. AJ mentioned that grains are made up of .13% magnesium so there will almost always be enough magnesium in your mash. I have also heard of brewers using table, kosher or sea salt in their beers but again, this is more for flavor than it is for the sodium level in your mash.
Those of you with soft water, thank your lucky stars. It’s MUCH easier to add a bit of this or that when necessary than it is to dilute 8 gallons of water with distilled water. I’ll also mention (again, probably) that it’s easy to overdo additions so go easy. Many local brewers I know have created salty-tasting beers by using too much in the additions department. Cheers gang.
I definitely get that sense. I think my first stab at tweaking my water profile will be to make a real dark stout and to see how good/bad my buffer is and how easily I can bring pH back up. Next challenge probably would be to make a lightly-hopped pale ale, then make it again but boost Ca to 50 ppm and chase pH back up if necessary. Would be interesting to see what kind of difference that makes, if any (hopefully it won’t ).
I’m pretty careful about this. I’ve been upping gypsum boil additions for my IPA .5 teaspoon per batch, starting at a .5 teaspoon. This last round I used 1.5 teaspoons and the hops are popping, but no harsh or salty flavors…I don’t see myself going above 2 teaspoons without scaling down the recipe for a gallon batch. I don’t want 5 gallons of beer-flavored salt water on my hands .
I’m also not sure if bicarbonate perpetuates the saltiness in a beer. It doesn’t really “feel like it” when I think of the flavors you might get from bicarbonate but I just wonder if people with low water numbers across the board would have a harder time getting a beer to taste salty than someone with more bicarbonate in the water. I occasionally hear people say that they add 9 grams of gypsum and 6 grams of calcium chloride and 7 grams of epsom salt (or something to that effect) and I can’t picture it coming out good. My additions are small… 1g of gypsum, 2-3g of calcium chloride & depending on style.
Thanks, Ken, for linking to this very informative thread. I, too, have been on an odyssey for the past year or so to better understand bicarbonate effects.
For additional discussion on the topic, see also:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=107869&p=1007075&hilit=treated+bicarbonate#p1007075Your comments regarding your flavor preferences re: sulfate are interesting. How much gypsym (CaSO4) do you add, in grams per gallon of strike water? Or, what is your gypsum ppm in the mash? For me, I regularly add about 1/2 of one gram per gallon to reach mash pH, usually resulting in 50-80 ppm sulfate.
EDIT: Strike that–I see how much you add; we’re at least on-par with our mineral additions. I’m still curious about your usual mash gypsum ppm, but I’m also going to hazard a guess that it’s similar to mine.
My water sulfate content is about 57 ppm. I’ve been hearing about a lot of people who use really high sulfate levels so I thought I’d try it. Just made an AIPA with 200 ppm sulfate and after 2 weeks in the fermenter it’s tasting fantastic.
The sulfate number in my tap water is just 27 and chloride is 21 so my water is balanced and slightly leaning in the crisp/bitter direction. When I add something to lower pH, it’s almost always calcium chloride. If I’m making something where I want the hops to pop a bit, I’ll add something like 2g of calcium chloride and 1 to 1.5g of gypsum to my 4 gallons(ish) of mash water. I typically won’t add anything to the sparge unless the pH is high in which case I will knock it down with a small amount of lactic acid.
Denny… here’s a Q for you. If my bicarb number was 138ppm and I made a pale ale that had a low SRM number like 6 or 7 and I also boosted the sulfate level… would you envision a harsh beer? I did just that on a recent all-Nelson-Sauvin pale ale with 100% filtered tap water and equal parts gypsum and CaCl in the mash. Mouth-puckering harshness was the result.
Yeah, I think that’s what I’d expect. OTOH, my bicarb is 90, which doesn’t seem WAY lower than yours. I’d like to hear Martin’s take on our relative waters and results.
On the one hand I find all of this water information fascinating but to be honest… I’m just interested in great beer. Perfectly made beer. Also, I’m not a science person in any way, shape or form. When Martin, AJ or Kai start with the formulas, fancy talk and $10 words, I check out. But some of this information is necessary because otherwise I won’t be making that great, perfect beer. You can see the bind I’m in! :lol:
Cheers Beerheads! :cheers:
One thing I am not sure you guys realize is the acid created by calcium in the water and malt phosphates neutralizes/removes bicarbs? This is what drives the pH down during the mash.
I give all those guys credit for rehashing the same water discussion…
Water started to click for me reading Noonan’s revised Brewing Lager Beer. It was way ahead of it’s time. Truth be told, Dave Line’s books dealt with treating water for homebrewing in the mid 70’s, I kid you not. What is old is new again…
For IPA’s I aim for 150 ppm Ca and 350ppm SO4. Been doing it since the early 90’s when Foster advocated it.
[quote=“Ken Lenard”]On the one hand I find all of this water information fascinating but to be honest… I’m just interested in great beer. Perfectly made beer. Also, I’m not a science person in any way, shape or form. When Martin, AJ or Kai start with the formulas, fancy talk and $10 words, I check out. But some of this information is necessary because otherwise I won’t be making that great, perfect beer. You can see the bind I’m in! :lol:
Cheers Beerheads! :cheers: [/quote]
Man, I SO understand!
Good to hear. I’m sneaking up on that sulfate number.
[quote=“zwiller”]One thing I am not sure you guys realize is the acid created by calcium in the water and malt phosphates neutralizes/removes bicarbs? This is what drives the pH down during the mash.
I give all those guys credit for rehashing the same water discussion…
Water started to click for me reading Noonan’s revised Brewing Lager Beer. It was way ahead of it’s time. Truth be told, Dave Line’s books dealt with treating water for homebrewing in the mid 70’s, I kid you not. What is old is new again…
For IPA’s I aim for 150 ppm Ca and 350ppm SO4. Been doing it since the early 90’s when Foster advocated it.[/quote]
How much bicarbonate is in your water?
I agree with the acid neutralizing the bicarbonate and you’ll notice in that other thread that somewhere in there I mentioned that I was fuzzy on that part. Someone mentioned using phosphoric acid to neutralize the bicarbonate but also mentioned that using too much could contribute (negatively) to flavor. I need to look at that part a little closer and I also have Noonan’s revised lager book so I should look into that as well.
[quote=“Ken Lenard”] Also, magnesium sulfate (epsom salt) is almost never required unless you like the flavor of it. AJ mentioned that grains are made up of .13% magnesium so there will almost always be enough magnesium in your mash. I have also heard of brewers using table, kosher or sea salt in their beers but again, this is more for flavor than it is for the sodium level in your mash.
Those of you with soft water, thank your lucky stars. It’s MUCH easier to add a bit of this or that when necessary than it is to dilute 8 gallons of water with distilled water. I’ll also mention (again, probably) that it’s easy to overdo additions so go easy. Many local brewers I know have created salty-tasting beers by using too much in the additions department. Cheers gang.[/quote]
Your comment about Magnesium Sulfate scares me because I just used this for the first time on a ten gallon batch. Again, starting with 100% RO water, Bru’nwater told me I needed some magnesium and this was about the only way I could find to get it. It was not a lot at all, but maybe 3 grams for 7 or 8 gallons of Strike water.
I also used to use sea salt and gypsum and added way more to my strike and sparge water before I started paying attention to this. The difference should be interesting
Martin has said in the AHA forum that you almost never need to add Mg. This jives with what Tobias Fischborn from Lallemand said at NHC a few years ago. In general, you get all the Mg you need from the grain.
Agreed, but 560sdl, don’t worry about it at this point. I did use some amount of MgSO4 in some beers and they were okay. I think it depends on the beer style and your tastebuds. To carry that thought further… almost all of the beers I make are a little more on the delicate side so this may be why I concentrate on water a little more… because it may come into play more on Oktoberfests, Helles, Viennas, Blonde Ales, Pilsners, Amber or Red Lagers, etc. If you’re making IIPAs or other big, flavorful beers, you have more wiggle room. I was also in the habit of adding CaCl, CaSO4 and MgSO4 to the brew kettle because a number of people suggested that. It was not in line with my tastebuds at all. This is done strictly for flavor and I am not interested in that. Once I heard the waterheads mention that MgSO4 was rarely, if ever, necessary, I put it out of my mind.
Here’s one: Zwiller mentioned this but anyone who knows can respond… how much bicarbonate is neutralized by the acid in calcium added to the mash? I guess this is a subtlety I didn’t consider. I realize that adding CaCl and gypsum lowers pH (as acids do) but I always looked at lowering bicarbonate levels through dilution, not through the use of acids. I guess my muddy brain (thanks beer!) has a hard time separating the “lowering mash pH” part from the “lowering bicarbonate” part. I dislike formulas but if I had 138ppm of bicarbonate and added some amount of CaCl to my mash, is there an easy way to know how much lower my bicarb would be? Is this what you use the residual alkalinity for? I also get fuzzy about RA. I know that for pale-colored beers you want low RA… like -50 or something but I’m not sure I know why that is.
Good to hear. I’m sneaking up on that sulfate number.[/quote]I wonder since magnesium sulfate being a laxative is the reason everyone is afraid of overdoing it… :lol:
[quote=“Ken Lenard”] How much bicarbonate is in your water?
I agree with the acid neutralizing the bicarbonate and you’ll notice in that other thread that somewhere in there I mentioned that I was fuzzy on that part. Someone mentioned using phosphoric acid to neutralize the bicarbonate but also mentioned that using too much could contribute (negatively) to flavor. I need to look at that part a little closer and I also have Noonan’s revised lager book so I should look into that as well.[/quote]
120ppm bicarb.
Good to hear. I’m sneaking up on that sulfate number.[/quote]I wonder since magnesium sulfate being a laxative is the reason everyone is afraid of overdoing it… :lol:
[quote=“Ken Lenard”] How much bicarbonate is in your water?
I agree with the acid neutralizing the bicarbonate and you’ll notice in that other thread that somewhere in there I mentioned that I was fuzzy on that part. Someone mentioned using phosphoric acid to neutralize the bicarbonate but also mentioned that using too much could contribute (negatively) to flavor. I need to look at that part a little closer and I also have Noonan’s revised lager book so I should look into that as well.[/quote]
120ppm bicarb.[/quote]
I can’t say (or at least I don’t know) that I have had a beer with 120ppm of HCO3, 350ppm SO4 and 150ppm of Ca but it sounds like a lot to me. Of course, I don’t drink many IPAs so that could be why. Also, in many cases it appears that it’s the balance that really counts (within reason) so what do you think your chlorides were? If they were high as well, it sounds perfectly reasonable.
Page 57 Noonan: “Bicarbonates, and to a lesser extent, carbonates constitute most of the alkalinity of natural waters. Combined with calcium, they are expressed as the temporary or carbonate hardness of water, or that part of the hardness that will precipitate out of a solution by boiling, or with the addition of lime”. To me this means, alkalinity>bicarbs can REMOVED from water.
Ken, I think this is starting to click for you. Pages 72-73 go on to describe how to various acids to REMOVE alkalinity. Not sure there is an equation for calcium (phytic acid) reduction of alkalinity but it is happening and is taken into account on spreadsheets like Bru’nwater. Now remember we are talking mash only. Calcium does NOT have any mojo in the sparge which is why I advocate acidifying all sparge water (remove bicarb).
Page 57 Noonan: “Bicarbonates, and to a lesser extent, carbonates constitute most of the alkalinity of natural waters. Combined with calcium, they are expressed as the temporary or carbonate hardness of water, or that part of the hardness that will precipitate out of a solution by boiling, or with the addition of lime”. To me this means, alkalinity>bicarbs can REMOVED from water.
Ken, I think this is starting to click for you. Pages 72-73 go on to describe how to various acids to REMOVE alkalinity. Not sure there is an equation for calcium (phytic acid) reduction of alkalinity but it is happening and is taken into account on spreadsheets like Bru’nwater. Now remember we are talking mash only. Calcium does NOT have any mojo in the sparge which is why I advocate acidifying all sparge water (remove bicarb).[/quote]
I just went down to my brew bunker and read some of what you posted. Of course, I risked dosing off… I took a jolt but I’m okay. :lol: For me, I almost always use 4 gallons of water to mash and 4 to sparge. I always add my additions of CaCl or CaSO4 only to the mash. Always. If it still needs a kick, I use lactic acid to lower it. I guess I didn’t realize I was lowering bicarb by adding acid, just lowering pH. For the sparge, if the pH is high, I add acid and nothing else. I have not considered boiling to remove bicarb because you can only remove bicarb as long as there is sufficient calcium in the water. My bicarb is 138 but my calcium is only 34 so this does not seem to be a good bet… plus, it’s time consuming and I wouldn’t want to waste all that energy to boil water when I can buy 69¢ gallons of distilled water. You’re right… the more I talk about this, the more it clicks. Cheers gang!