Bru'n Water Results for Hoppy Red, too much salt?

[el_cabrito]

So i made Denny’s RyeSmile last month. tried a sample and there is pretty much no hop profile at all, other than that it tastes good. have yet to dry hop, but that can only take me so far i would guess. i have made a few non-hoppy beers and all have come out decent. i have the Lakefront Fixed Gear on deck for this wkend and don’t want another zero hop beer. downloaded Bru’n Water and put in DC profile:
pH = 7.4
Total Alkalinity = 33.0 ppm (assume as CaC03 report doesnt make that explicit)
Total Hardness = 59 ppm (assume as CaC03 report doesnt make that explicit)
Ca = 15.7 ppm
Mg = 4.9 ppm
Na = 15.3 ppm
HC03 = 40.2 ppm
S04 = 6.8 ppm
Cl = 35.4 ppm

Doing Batch sparge: 5.5 gal mash H2O, 3.5 gal sparge H2O.
In Bru’n Water: Desired Water Profile = Amber Bitter
to match amber bitter H2O profile with my H20 and Lakefront malt bill the spreadsheet says to add:
Gypsum = 1.4g mash, 1.8g sparge
Epsom = 2.8g mash, 1.7g sparge
CaCl2 = 0.0g mash, 0.5g sparge
Chalk = 1.4g mash, 0.0g sparge
MgCl2 = 0.6g mash, 0.3g sparge

Question is, do these seem like large salt additions? i have zero experience with water chemistry alteration.

[chuck]

This is an excellent beer if I were you don’t add anything to your water just use it AS IS and you will have an excellent beer. Lakefronts web site say it has 34 IBUs the NB recipe has about 43 IBUs plus what dry hopping will add.

[tom_sawyer]

Just looking at the amounts, it looks like too much magnesium salts to me. Yopur water starts with 5ppm Mg, I think thats enough. Otherwise, the gyp and chalk with a little CaCl2 seem about right.

[beerginer]

I am guessing you are adding the Epsom to increase your sulfate levels. I usually use the Gypsum for this, but it will still work fine. I would probably drop the MgCl2, I just don’t think you need it. I would say the measurements are fine. Remember you are adding this to 9 gallons of water, and the measurements are only in grams. :cheers:

[shadetree]

I would try to mash with no salt additions. Then add enough gypsum to get the sulfate concentration in the kettle around 100ppm and the calcium in the 50-100ppm range. You don’t need any more chloride - with 35 ppm you’ll have a 3:1 sulfate:chloride ratio, which is good for hoppy beers. And you don’t want to add carbonates if you can help it, so no chalk unless you absolutely have to add it to the mash.

[tom_sawyer]

@Shadetree

I would try to mash with no salt additions. Then add enough gypsum to get the sulfate concentration in the kettle around 100ppm and the calcium in the 50-100ppm range. You don’t need any more chloride - with 35 ppm you’ll have a 3:1 sulfate:chloride ratio, which is good for hoppy beers. And you don’t want to add carbonates if you can help it, so no chalk unless you absolutely have to add it to the mash.

Don’t you want 50ppm of Ca in the mash for the ezymes? I’d add that gyp to the mash for that reason. Not that I think it wouldn’t work if you didn’t add anything. I’d also be happy with 70ppm sulfate and a 2:1 ratio.

[shadetree]

@tom sawyer

Don’t you want 50ppm of Ca in the mash for the ezymes?

I’ve read that and used to worry about it, but I haven’t seen a drop in efficiency since switching to a more minimal approach to salt additions. The OP has 15ppm Ca in his tap water, which ought to be enough for the enzymes. If the beer was lower SRM, I would use gypsum to lower the pH, but I figure with a red the pH is probably going to be pretty close with no additions.

[pawtucket_patriot]

@tom sawyer

[quote=“Shadetree”]I would try to mash with no salt additions. Then add enough gypsum to get the sulfate concentration in the kettle around 100ppm and the calcium in the 50-100ppm range. You don’t need any more chloride - with 35 ppm you’ll have a 3:1 sulfate:chloride ratio, which is good for hoppy beers. And you don’t want to add carbonates if you can help it, so no chalk unless you absolutely have to add it to the mash.

Don’t you want 50ppm of Ca in the mash for the ezymes? I’d add that gyp to the mash for that reason. Not that I think it wouldn’t work if you didn’t add anything. I’d also be happy with 70ppm sulfate and a 2:1 ratio.[/quote]

My understanding is that the 50ppm Ca ROT is aimed at providing the yeast with adequate mineral ions during fermentation. I’m not sure what effect, if any, Ca ions have on mash enzymes. But doesn’t Kai often perform mash experiments using distilled water, which is devoid of any minerals?

[slothrob]

I’ve used my tap water in the mash many times. It has 4 ppm Ca and my efficiency was excellent after 60 minutes.

Calcium is a cofactor for amylase, but it seems to take very little for ample enzyme activity. It does improve the thermostability of the enzyme, however, which may be helpful for something like fermentability.

The difference in the clarity of my beer with higher calcium levels, however, is striking. Chill haze is reduced and the yeast seems to drop faster.

[el_cabrito]

thanks all. i think i am gonna take a more reserved stance on salt. played with the #s and it looks like about 5g Gypsum and 1g Epsom get me in a sweet spot. will add to kettle and not mash. based on the color i have not had any mash pH issues with similar mashes. however, lack of hop character is rather depressing which led me down this salt road. now if i could just fix that bland RyeSmile in my keg

[slothrob]

You don’t need the Epsom Salt. Probably, nobody does. Leave it out.

[tom_sawyer]

@El_Cabrito

thanks all. i think i am gonna take a more reserved stance on salt. played with the #s and it looks like about 5g Gypsum and 1g Epsom get me in a sweet spot. will add to kettle and not mash. based on the color i have not had any mash pH issues with similar mashes. however, lack of hop character is rather depressing which led me down this salt road. now if i could just fix that bland RyeSmile in my keg

Add some gyp and Epsoms, it might just do the trick. The sulfate is a flavor addition, it can be added later.

[fimbrew]

You don’t need the Epsom Salt. Probably, nobody does. Leave it out.

If you want more sulfates without adding too much Calcium use epsom salts.