I’ve been brewing a few years now and usually do a single infusion mash in the target temp area where alpha and beta amylase work together. Getting more into the science of this, it would appear that it would be best to do a higher temp mash first for alpha amylase to break down the larger proteins, then drop the temp to let the beta amylase go to work on the ends of those for a more fermentable wort. I haven’t run into a recipe or mash schedule like this and was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this or tried something like that?
Maybe the temperature where they work together is just fine enough to get the job done or it depends on what type of beer you are going for. Might get into the art vs. science of home brewing.
Just wanted to open up some discussion and see if anyone had any thoughts or experimented on the matter. Thanks
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Me do the same thing. Not sure. If you do a ale or. Stout. You can use higher temps. For mashing. Mayby. Pilsner. A lower temp. But not 100 % sure. See what other ones say
Generally I believe you would start with a colder mash temp and go to a warmer by firing up your burner or adding hot water. I suppose you could add cold water or use a chiller to go the other way. A simpler way would be to probably do 2 separate mashed and combine them. Either way it sounds like alot of work for to little of a payback on a Homebrew scale
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Lately, I’ve been rocking the Hochkurz mash for all my lagers. I adjust the alpha and beta timing based on how I’d liked the beer to finish.
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With 6row I do a protein rest and maybe wheat would see a benefit. As far as a mash out totally unnecessary. It’s used to stop conversion of the mash when it takes along time to get from your mash temperature is to hot enough to stop conversion. Home Brewers go to boil quicker than commercial Brewers so that stops conversion. Not sure if the poster is talking about the hochkurtz method . He’s talking about going from hot to cold which I must admit I’ve not heard of
Yeah, I’ve read that exbeeriment. (have they ever been able to tell the difference between anything in their testing?)
What the OP is proposing might get similar results to those that do overnight mashing. I’ve never tried it though.
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That’s true and people do alot of things when homebrewing that don’t make a difference in the beer. That’s fine. I started out doing step mash and fly sparge. Now most of my brews are single infusion biab. Some people focus on technique some on equipment. I focus on my recipe there are alot of ways to get to a place.
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Not to get too off topic: when I create my recipes and brew, I actually treat it as a pilot batch. That way our head brewer can more easily scale up the recipe. If I was just brewing for me, I’d totally be rocking single infusion BIAB.
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I figured the general answer would be what brew_cat mentioned, a lot more work for probably not a lot of difference. That’s what I suspected as well, which is why I generally stick to the single infusion.
Was just curious if any one had ventured into experimenting that way and if they saw any major differences in efficiency or the end product.
Appreciate the discussion.
It was my understanding that you have to do the lower temperature first or you will volatilize the Beta Amylase. Meaning you cannot go high first.
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I believe that if you start higher there’s a good chance you’ll denature most of the beta amylase rendering it inactive. This would then require a lengthy beta rest to get what you want. Of course it depends on how high you go on the initial mash temps.
IIRC overnight mashers report very fermentable wort. Of course most are using a mash temp that favors both beta and alpha amylase (~152°). Therefore, the mash will remain in the beta stage much more longer as it is active down to 140°.
Now with all things I suggest that you see for yourself how it will end up. Sometimes the science or theory doesn’t match with reality. Worse comes to worse you’ll just end up with a fuller bodied beer.
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Thank you Squeegee and Loopie!
I have come to understand Beta breaks down the long chains…allowing Alpha to break them down even more efficiently… So with that in my head, I have been doing a rest at 142 for a half hour, then raise the temp to 158 for another half hour… I cannot tell you I can taste a difference… BUT, my final Gravity has come in up to 4 points lower… Is that grain efficiency? Perhaps… Sneezles61
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T[quote=“sneezles61, post:12, topic:27556, full:true”]
Thank you Squeegee and Loopie!
I have come to understand Beta breaks down the long chains…allowing Alpha to break them down even more efficiently… So with that in my head, I have been doing a rest at 142 for a half hour, then raise the temp to 158 for another half hour… I cannot tell you I can taste a difference… BUT, my final Gravity has come in up to 4 points lower… Is that grain efficiency? Perhaps… Sneezles61
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This is commonly referred to as a hochkurz mash. It allows you to obtain a very fermentable wort while still retaining body. Your 142° is an ideal temp for beta enzymes, thus your getting good conversion. This is the ONLY way I mash any lager beer. And yes, many report increased efficiency with this mash schedule as you can obtain more fermentable a while retaining body.
I hear a lot of people knock the Mash Out step saying it’s not needed. This is really process specific. I fly sparge and if I didn’t do this my wort would remain in the beta phase for entirely too long and can produce a thin/dry beer.
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So, if you pay attention to mash pH and do a mash out/rinsing the grains, then the proteins and tannins won’t be a factor in appearance and astringent flavor to your brew? I do BIAB and after I get the basket hoisted out of the wort, I do run a tube on top of the wort as I’m heating. And I do usually stop after 170*, sometimes it may be a bit less. Sneezles61
Correct. Mash pH is more detrimental to tannins and astringency than mash out or sparge temps. If temps only were the cause then any beer that was ever decocted would have major astringency issues.
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I just did a step mash as part of an Abby ale I’m working on. It was a BIAB with the bag/grains in the pot the whole time but with a false bottom to keep the bag off of the bottom. My goal was 122F to 140F to 155F. But the bag trapped a lot of heat on the bottom and I learned that constant stirring is needed for this approach. I ended up with a 130 to 140 to 160 mash with 30 min in between. I’m about to sparge but my pre-sparge gravity is exactly on target. pH 5.3 with 95% Pilsen Malts
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I’ve done it with direct flame and also with hot water infusion both have their issues. This is where a recirculating system would be nice.
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I have a recirculating system and rarely use it. Normally my HLT that has the coil in it to recirculate is set at 170° for sparge. At that temp using the coil that came with the system the temp actually drops in the mash at first so raising the temp is a long process. The only options to improve it would be either raising the HLT temp or replacing the coil with a larger one.
Since I find it such a PIA to do step mash with it I just do single infusion.
Perhaps I’m lucky… Easy enough to get to the starting temp, put in the basket, stir well, recirc… Raise the temp… I do stir a few times…
Squeegee, once your brew is in drinking condition, tell us if you notice a difference… I believe the Belgium lace, clarity, final gravity and flavor will take it up a notch… I do correct my water before the grist goes in… And test after 15 minutes or so of soaking… Sneezles61
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Where did you get your basket from?
