Let's talk about hops

[sneezles61]

We are aware of bittering and aroma... now, how about flavoring... ?
There are some brews out there that have a flavor, I'm certain it didn't come from malt... yeast..? I'm trying some brews, looking at the recipes from the actual brewer and I'm beginning to think... in the, say 30 minutes and less, I see there are additions... Notably, SN pale ale... There is a spicyness... Some of you get Summit, their MiaBock is another one...
Any one know this or use this hop schedule and get an extra flavor?
Sneezles61

[squeegeethree]

Did you listen to Denny’s latest podcast. Some great stuff in this one on hops.

[sneezles61]

I just listened and read your posts... There IS one piece of the puzzle put on the table... Denny mentioned about his brown ale he makes.... Additions every 15 minutes... Then did the same brew without the additions... He felt the one with the additions was better...
That's were I'm going with this conversation...
Perhaps it's me, but I'm not a big fan of the fruity NEIPA...
There is an attraction I have to NWIPA... APA...Not bitter... but there is a spicy-ness..
Damn, I'll have to brew more to see if it's in the additions in the kettle before FO hops... Carophenols (?)...
Sneezles61

[dannyboy58]

Some hops have a spicy, floral presentation. Saaz, Premiant...come to mind.

[voodoo_donut]

@sneezles61 Which is is the NWIPA?
I was just talking yesterday to a friend up the street and fellow hop head about the different IPAs. West Coast(Pliny), East Coast(Harpoon), Midwest(Bell's, Surly), NEIPA(Treehouse), and even British(Fulller's)(although British and East Coast may be basically the same) all are distinctive in their extremities.....but a lot of crossover in the middle likely exists.

[sneezles61]

North West... Oregan Washington area...
sneezles61

[voodoo_donut]

Ok thanks....I figured it out later, northwest IPAs are "beers with a sturdier malt bill than west coast IPAs with their lighter body and brighter(what, not sure his words)with an emphasis on aromatic hops."
https://beerandbrewing.com/the-ipas-of-the-pacific-northwest
It sounds like west, northwest and Midwest are a gradation or a progression along the same line.....

[voodoo_donut]

Even "Northwest" is subject to interpretation........Duluth would be the heart of the 'old' definition of northwest....

[sneezles61]

I was never able to get the Russian river, Firestone Walker brews... But some of the intros, Longhammer.. O'Dells IPa were available... And of course the Summit dark blue label from years ago... Big Sky IPA... Deschutes...
Sneezles61

[voodoo_donut]

Ok, back to talking about hops....
For the two West Coast DIPA's I brew, the hop bills are modestly different, with the Big Sur/To Sur with Love less dank and uses Magnum for bittering, Chinook for FWH and centennial, Chinook, Amarillo, and Simcoe for all other additions.
Pliny the Elder and our hosts' The Plinian Legacy uses Amarillo, Columbus, Simcoe and Centennial. They(Northern Brewer)also employ two -10 ml hopshots.

[sneezles61]

The flavor hops... 30 minutes up to FO... What are those? That's a part not much is discussed...
I've got a small ale that I can turn up a bit.. time to test those "flavor" additions and times... I'll start with Cascades.. I'll dream up some schedule as a starting point... Repeat the grainbill... Just alter the time and amount added..
If you got ideas.. Please post them... Then brew and we could compare?
Friday looks like a good day to brew for me
Sneezles61

[squeegeethree]

30 minutes is kind of long for flavor IMO. Myrcene has a boiling point of 160°F and humulene has a boiling point of 210°F. So you won't get much of those flavors with a 30 minute boil.

[voodoo_donut]

Agreed. I rarely design a hop scheme with anything longer than a 15 minute flavor addition. The Big Sur referenced above uses a FWH, 60 bittering charge, and two hop additions at 10 minutes, Flameout and whirlpool.

Flavor hops between "30 to 15 minutes before the boil", and aroma hops at 10, 5, or at flameout.

[squeegeethree]

When I was starting brewing I didn't realized that I needed to subtract the time it took to chill or my FO/Hop stand times from my flavoring and aroma times. When i finally made that correction i got so much more out of my hops.
So my noob mistake looked like 20 flavor and 5 aroma plus 10 minute hop stand and 10 minutes to get below 170F meant my flavor addition was now 40 minutes and my aroma was 25. I was getting nothing good from either.

[sneezles61]

I haven't been adding any hops after FWH, or bittering additions... until FO, or whirlpool and DH.... For many years
I think I understand the time addition with the prolonged whirlpool (WP).. Oils are easily lost with heat...
I've brewed many without WP lately, lagers style, so I'll try some with flavor additions and FO steeping first... I need to see if I can tell how/if it does add "flavor"..
Sneezles61

[sneezles61]

Brew day...
5 lbs each MO and Pils.
1lbs wheat.
8 oz C-40
Hops schedule...
To the boil....1/2 oz Gr. Northern Brewer
15... 10... 5.... minutes each get 1/2 oz Cascades...
WP.... 1 oz Cascade...
Won't do any DH'ing this time....
OG about 1.050
See if I get some flavor..
Sneezles61

[squeegeethree]

I've always thought it interesting how some descriptions of Cascade call it a Bittering/Aroma hop and others say Bittering/Flavor. One its parents, the variety Serebrianka, is a "Continental aroma and taste with hints of black tea, herbs and tobacco" and the other parent, Fuggle, is typically thought of as aroma as well. I think Flavor and Aroma are interchangeable terms in most instances

[sneezles61]

That's what I gather... I'm looking to see if my taste buds can tell... I plan to brew the same batch after this one is the keg...
Only alteration... The flavor additions will be WP... Many claim, there isn't a difference...
Sneezles61

[sneezles61]

What a nice un-eventful brew day...
I'm waiting to see how the newly improved fermenter works... The 1/2" stand off/bung I took off wasn't stuck too well...
Morale of the stand off/bung? Don't try silver solder in a very cold garage, in the deep cold of Mn. With a propane torch...
Sneezles61

[squeegeethree]

My better-half does't like it when I say the word bunghole.. so I really seek out moments to use it in polite conversation.