There’s really no need to even smack then other than to assure viability. Cell growth after smacking is so insignificant that it doesn’t really matter.
Well, it kinda depends…if you pitch enough yeast, oxygenation isn’t really an issue. You need O2 for the yeast to synthesize sterols in order to keep the cell walls flexible for cell growth. But if you pitch enough yeast, you really don’t need cell growth. Now, of course this overlooks the possible benefits to beer flavor from cell growth, but strictly in terms of good fermentation it may not be necessary. For instance, if I [pitch a half slurry into an average gravity batch, I don’t bother with aeration. Same if I use dry yeast. I used ti use O2 and a stone, but I gave it away after finding that a MixStir worked equally well when I did want to aerate.
I watched a brewing tv video the other night with a guy from Wyeast, and he said as long as the pack is fresh they recommend no starter and just pitching the smack pack as long as the gravity is under 1.060. Seems to line up with what you are saying. However, if you read what most people say on these forums they would make you think you need to make a 1.5 L starter for a 1.040 beer when you have a brand new smack pack.
I’ve done some involuntary experimentation with pitching yeast under different conditions, and found that with very fresh, healthy yeast (or a well treated pack of dry) you can get away with a lot. As soon as the yeast is less than ideal, for any reason, other things become more important. So I can’t get fresh smack packs where I live, which means if I don’t do a good sized starter before hand I’m going to get a sluggish fermentation or a poorly attenuated beer or possibly off flavors. That’s a big incentive to harvest yeast and plan brew days to enable me to use freshly harvested yeast. And once I’ve got harvested yeast, it is pretty easy to just pitch what mrmalty recommends, as I’ve got boatloads.
With regards to oxygenation, I find you can safely skip it if you pitch enough yeasts or use dry AND you don’t want to harvest the yeast afterwards. Without or with anemic oxygenation, the yeast can chew through the first beer with no problem, but they’ll be weak for the second one.
Pitch rate may have similar effects to pitching yeast with different levels of health, but I can’t say I’ve enough experience to vouch for that.
I have had less than optimal results doing that, even though I live a couple hours from Wyeast and get very fresh yeast.
I have had less than optimal results doing that, even though I live a couple hours from Wyeast and get very fresh yeast.[/quote]
Really? Damn. I have bought packs of yeast that were less than a week old and smacked them at the LHBS and drove home (about 20 minutes) and the pack was swollen hard… like I thought it would burst. Go through the brewday, get the wort into primary, oxygenate and pitch right from the pack. Fermentation starts up quickly, beer ferments fully at reasonably low temps and resulting beer is outstanding. Probably a 1.050 ale in those cases but I make a lot of those so it’s all good.
Whatever works Ken, I wouldn’t over think it. I fear not making a starter, as I have had experiences with odd fermentation and inconsistent attenuation without using one (some times, but not every time). I have never had an inconsistent experience with a starter. I started canning wort, and that makes starter production easy.
I do a .8 liter starter on a stir place for an ale (can’t get a whole liter in a canning jar). I used to do two stages for lager (.8 liter first to 2.4 liter second stage), but I started just using a single 1.6 liter starter on a stir plate. Performance has been the same, I’m not going back to more work and risk.
I agree with the sentiment that Mr. Malty calculates large pitches, it’s overkill most of the time in my experience.
Nuff said! IMO, try more yeast for a couple batches, if it doesn’t make your beer better, then what’s the point? Do what works! :cheers: [/quote]
^^^ This.
I use a little less yeast than Mr. Malty recommends. Not a lot but a little. I never use more than one pack and never do step ups, but I also never brew more than 6 gallons. Lately I use only dry yeast as it is so very convenient and comes out great.
Guys: I appreciate the replies.
Let me change the angle on this a little bit. Let’s say you’re Ken (God help you) and you have this vial of WLP011 that you probably bought in Jan or Feb 2014 and it has a BEST BY date of April 2014. Now it’s late September, early October and you want to make an Alt with it that has a starting gravity of between 1.050 and 1.055. What do you do? I took it out of the fridge and let it warm up for 24 hours or so, made the starter with 650ml of water and ½ cup DME and some nutrient, chilled it, added some pure O2 and got it on the stirplate. 24 hours later it was showing signs of activity and 36 hours later it was white, foamy and active and then 48 hours later (from making the starter) I brewed and pitched the whole thing and got activity in the primary 5 hours after that. What would you guys have done? Ready, GO!
[quote=“Ken Lenard”]Guys: I appreciate the replies.
Let me change the angle on this a little bit. Let’s say you’re Ken (God help you) and you have this vial of WLP011 that you probably bought in Jan or Feb 2014 and it has a BEST BY date of April 2014. Now it’s late September, early October and you want to make an Alt with it that has a starting gravity of between 1.050 and 1.055. What do you do? I took it out of the fridge and let it warm up for 24 hours or so, made the starter with 650ml of water and ½ cup DME and some nutrient, chilled it, added some pure O2 and got it on the stirplate. 24 hours later it was showing signs of activity and 36 hours later it was white, foamy and active and then 48 hours later (from making the starter) I brewed and pitched the whole thing and got activity in the primary 5 hours after that. What would you guys have done? Ready, GO![/quote]
I would have done exactly what you did. Except I don’t have the ability to oxygenate. BTW, this is the minimum I do for all my liquid yeast these days, no matter how fresh it is…
[quote=“65SS427”][quote=“Ken Lenard”]Guys: I appreciate the replies.
Let me change the angle on this a little bit. Let’s say you’re Ken (God help you) and you have this vial of WLP011 that you probably bought in Jan or Feb 2014 and it has a BEST BY date of April 2014. Now it’s late September, early October and you want to make an Alt with it that has a starting gravity of between 1.050 and 1.055. What do you do? I took it out of the fridge and let it warm up for 24 hours or so, made the starter with 650ml of water and ½ cup DME and some nutrient, chilled it, added some pure O2 and got it on the stirplate. 24 hours later it was showing signs of activity and 36 hours later it was white, foamy and active and then 48 hours later (from making the starter) I brewed and pitched the whole thing and got activity in the primary 5 hours after that. What would you guys have done? Ready, GO![/quote]
I would have done exactly what you did. Except I don’t have the ability to oxygenate. BTW, this is the minimum I do for all my liquid yeast these days, no matter how fresh it is…[/quote]
Minimum or maximum?
[quote=“Ken Lenard”]Guys: I appreciate the replies.
Let me change the angle on this a little bit. Let’s say you’re Ken (God help you) and you have this vial of WLP011 that you probably bought in Jan or Feb 2014 and it has a BEST BY date of April 2014. Now it’s late September, early October and you want to make an Alt with it that has a starting gravity of between 1.050 and 1.055. What do you do? I took it out of the fridge and let it warm up for 24 hours or so, made the starter with 650ml of water and ½ cup DME and some nutrient, chilled it, added some pure O2 and got it on the stirplate. 24 hours later it was showing signs of activity and 36 hours later it was white, foamy and active and then 48 hours later (from making the starter) I brewed and pitched the whole thing and got activity in the primary 5 hours after that. What would you guys have done? Ready, GO![/quote]
I would have dine pretty much the same, but not let it warm up before making a starter. I always take yeast out of the fridge and pitch immediately. when you let the yeast warm, it starts consuming it’s glycogen reserves. You want that to happen in the wort, not while the yeast is just sitting around.
[quote=“Ken Lenard”][quote=“65SS427”][quote=“Ken Lenard”]Guys: I appreciate the replies.
Let me change the angle on this a little bit. Let’s say you’re Ken (God help you) and you have this vial of WLP011 that you probably bought in Jan or Feb 2014 and it has a BEST BY date of April 2014. Now it’s late September, early October and you want to make an Alt with it that has a starting gravity of between 1.050 and 1.055. What do you do? I took it out of the fridge and let it warm up for 24 hours or so, made the starter with 650ml of water and ½ cup DME and some nutrient, chilled it, added some pure O2 and got it on the stirplate. 24 hours later it was showing signs of activity and 36 hours later it was white, foamy and active and then 48 hours later (from making the starter) I brewed and pitched the whole thing and got activity in the primary 5 hours after that. What would you guys have done? Ready, GO![/quote]
I would have done exactly what you did. Except I don’t have the ability to oxygenate. BTW, this is the minimum I do for all my liquid yeast these days, no matter how fresh it is…[/quote]
Minimum or maximum?[/quote]
Minimum. I use this protocol for ales up to around 1.050-ish or so. For bigger ales I’ll do a 2 liter single step starter, and for lagers I’ll do a two step 2l starter or bigger, depending on the OG. I know it might be considered excessive by some, and not enough by others, but It’s what I’ve found that works well for me, so It’s what I use.
Honestly, I’m paranoid enough that I’d have bought new yeast. Not really proud of that fact, but that’s my honest answer. I’d be worried that I just wouldn’t make enough yeast.
I would have said “great - yeast that is less than a year old!”. I’d then put it into a two liter starter about 7-8 days before I was ready to brew (don’t have a stir plate or pure O2 to keep the volume lower or to kick start the process). I’d cold crash the starter the evening before brew day, then decant most of the liquid before pitching the slurry.
[quote=“Ken Lenard”]Guys: I appreciate the replies.
Let me change the angle on this a little bit. Let’s say you’re Ken (God help you) and you have this vial of WLP011 that you probably bought in Jan or Feb 2014 and it has a BEST BY date of April 2014. Now it’s late September, early October and you want to make an Alt with it that has a starting gravity of between 1.050 and 1.055. What do you do? I took it out of the fridge and let it warm up for 24 hours or so, made the starter with 650ml of water and ½ cup DME and some nutrient, chilled it, added some pure O2 and got it on the stirplate. 24 hours later it was showing signs of activity and 36 hours later it was white, foamy and active and then 48 hours later (from making the starter) I brewed and pitched the whole thing and got activity in the primary 5 hours after that. What would you guys have done? Ready, GO![/quote]
Are you surprised with your results?
If you had done it “by the book,” how would that change your results?
Here’s the deal. Mr. Malty, YeastCalc, Kai Troester… they’ve done the science of pitch rates for you, whether you use it or not is really up to you. The problem is they can’t make a formula for every yeast in every situation, although the calculators are fairly well generalized.
It appears that you’re not really trying to match any “pitch rate” so much as you’re just trying to pitch an active starter. There’s a difference between propagating yeast in an attempt to match a certain pitch rate, following the “best practice” of decanting and cold pitching, and simply making and pitching an active starter. The former is designed to make the best beer possible out of any situation, the latter is a best guess “because it’s worked in the past -or- it’s just what I do -or- it works for me.”
Active starter vs. propagating to a certain cell count and then pitching via best practice. That seems to be the disconnect here.
Good point. There are the tools, which includes the sites above, books, forum postings, whatever. Then there is each of our own experiences either following the advice of the tools or not. I’m willing to bet many folks offering up advice are just re-offering what the tools say the answer is without using their own experiences as a filter.
Personally, I probably never use the “proper” pitching rate because I don’t calculate it. I make starters because I re-use yeast a lot and go with the idea that actively fermenting yeast are going to get the job done. Outside of my own tastebuds and perception, my fellow brewers, fellow drinkers, and some solid competition results tell me I’m on the right path.
[quote=“chinaski”][quote=“stickboy”]
Here’s the deal. Mr. Malty, YeastCalc, Kai Troester… they’ve done the science of pitch rates for you, whether you use it or not is really up to you. The problem is they can’t make a formula for every yeast in every situation, although the calculators are fairly well generalized.
[/quote]
Good point. There are the tools, which includes the sites above, books, forum postings, whatever. Then there is each of our own experiences either following the advice of the tools or not. I’m willing to bet many folks offering up advice are just re-offering what the tools say the answer is without using their own experiences as a filter.
Personally, I probably never use the “proper” pitching rate because I don’t calculate it. I make starters because I re-use yeast a lot and go with the idea that actively fermenting yeast are going to get the job done. Outside of my own tastebuds and perception, my fellow brewers, fellow drinkers, and some solid competition results tell me I’m on the right path.[/quote]
Not sure where you came up with an assumption like this, but I’ll gladly take that bet. Though I only have around thirty batches under my belt, the cumulative batches brewed by the folks who have responded to this thread likely number over a thousand, and probably well over that. I’d say that’s enough experience to serve as a pretty fine filter…
[quote=“stickboy”][quote=“Ken Lenard”]Guys: I appreciate the replies.
Let me change the angle on this a little bit. Let’s say you’re Ken (God help you) and you have this vial of WLP011 that you probably bought in Jan or Feb 2014 and it has a BEST BY date of April 2014. Now it’s late September, early October and you want to make an Alt with it that has a starting gravity of between 1.050 and 1.055. What do you do? I took it out of the fridge and let it warm up for 24 hours or so, made the starter with 650ml of water and ½ cup DME and some nutrient, chilled it, added some pure O2 and got it on the stirplate. 24 hours later it was showing signs of activity and 36 hours later it was white, foamy and active and then 48 hours later (from making the starter) I brewed and pitched the whole thing and got activity in the primary 5 hours after that. What would you guys have done? Ready, GO![/quote]
Are you surprised with your results?
[/quote]
Not necessarily. I guess my surprise comes from the fact that I keep doing this and creating good beer and I keep hearing from others who say that I’m doing it incorrectly. That’s not a jab at those who tell me that because I think they’re just trying to guide, which is just fine. But I keep wondering why so many people say this when my experience tells me something else.
[quote=“chinaski”][quote=“stickboy”]
Here’s the deal. Mr. Malty, YeastCalc, Kai Troester… they’ve done the science of pitch rates for you, whether you use it or not is really up to you. The problem is they can’t make a formula for every yeast in every situation, although the calculators are fairly well generalized.
[/quote]
Good point. There are the tools, which includes the sites above, books, forum postings, whatever. Then there is each of our own experiences either following the advice of the tools or not. I’m willing to bet many folks offering up advice are just re-offering what the tools say the answer is without using their own experiences as a filter.
Personally, I probably never use the “proper” pitching rate because I don’t calculate it. I make starters because I re-use yeast a lot and go with the idea that actively fermenting yeast are going to get the job done. Outside of my own tastebuds and perception, my fellow brewers, fellow drinkers, and some solid competition results tell me I’m on the right path.[/quote]
Well put. The tools, texts, etc. don’t take everything into consideration and your experience should trump those things as long as your experience is consistent and you have enough of it.
I will say this on the topic of “content regurgitation”… in my time on the boards, I have seen many, many people who read something and then answer someone else’s question with that information without any personal experience. I understand the idea of people wanting to be helpful and to contribute to the content on the forum. But our hobby is already filled with so much misinformation, some people are just compounding it. If I answer a question, I try to do it using my own experience and if I only have second-hand information, I try to make that clear. In cases where I don’t know, I flat out say that I don’t know. I don’t try to pretend to know just so I can answer a question. I could be wrong and sooner or later someone is going to correct you on it anyway. Again, not a jab at anyone in particular… just an observation of what I have seen. At some point you know who to listen to on the boards and who to either question or ignore. Cheers Beerheads!
Ken- you correctly interpret what I said to apply to forum postings in general, not necessarily this particular thread. I’m also willing to bet that most of us don’t take anything we read here as absolute gospel, even from the most trusted & respected folks. In the end, we are all using our guts to make our brewing decisions and forming our own best practices on the available info- good, bad, or none of the above.
Good discussion- I raise my homegrown hopped house IPA in our honor!
