Obscure historical recipe - any ideas?

I’ve recently come across the Historical Signature Series of beers by Dr. Fritz Briem, and I’ve been blown away by his Piwo Grodziske / Graetzer ale. Here is a link for a description of the beer:

http://www.bunitedint.com/media/resourc ... zBriem.pdf

Essentially, it’s a smoked, sour wheat ale, and the flavors are perfectly blended and complimentary of one anther, but also very subtle. A great refreshing beer for a warm Spring or Summer day.

My questions: Has anybody ever heard of or tried this style? If so, do you have any thoughts on how to go about making it?

Any feedback is appreciated. Prost! :cheers:

Have you checked out Discount liquors at 51st and Oklahoma or Otto’s to see if they have it ?

Check out the book “Brewing With Wheat” by Stan Heironymous, if you can locate a copy of it at your local Barnes & Noble or the book section of your local homebrew supply shop. I own a copy, and I’m pretty sure there’s a recipe for that beer style in there. If not, just look it up online. I’m sure there has to be plenty of reliable info for free on how to make it.

I have had a beer that fits this description. They called it a Lictenheimer or something like this. I think it was a local style around Leipzig, but that was from the brewers entry notes. It was like a smoked Berliner Weisse. It won the “funkiest of show” category in our local competition and Freetail Brewing Company brewed a batch as part of the prize. They added different things to a few different barrels of it. I know they did a chipotle version.

I seem to recall someone on HBT recreated this recipe, I’ll see if I can dig it up and post a link.

As promised:

:cheers:

Jeff Gladish and I judged the final round of Specialty Beers in the NHC second round in Philly and a very tasty Gratzer was on the table. Outstanding flavor in that little beer. Interesting style.

It is definitely not supposed to be sour. It’s just 100% oak smoked wheat malt with a low OG.

I’ve been making them for a few years and can never make enough, easy drinking and flavorful

WOW - this sounds amazing! CliffordBrewing’s link is a great resource. I have a brewing buddy who’s big into smoking, so I immediately contacted him to plan a brew session. Should be lots of fun. Thanks for posting.

How many other obscure beer styles are floating around out there?

Yes, I originally found it at Discount Liquor, which, to my knowledge, is the only place around Milwaukee that carries it. Definitely worth the trip for a few bottles, because it is outstanding.

pour decisions, well what uysed to be pour decisions made one…delicous

[quote=“Bokonon”]It is definitely not supposed to be sour. It’s just 100% oak smoked wheat malt with a low OG.

I’ve been making them for a few years and can never make enough, easy drinking and flavorful[/quote]

This one actually is supposed to be sour. I’ve had a few of them and there is a nice tart flavor to the beer, but it’s not as pronounced as say a Berliner Weiss or a Lambic. The official description is as follows:

A sour mash is created using the old and
forgotten technique called “Digerieren”.
Finally a three month aging & maturation
process creates a complex sour, smoky &
heavily hopped wheat ale.

To your point, though, I’ve had several oak smoked wheat beers and they are indeed excellent.

For what it’s worth, I found this resource that gives some general guidelines about sour mashing.

http://byo.com/component/k2/item/1691-s ... Itemid=398

I’m not sure if the techniques described above are congruent with “Digerieren” mashing, but it sounds interesting nonetheless.

[quote=“Bokonon”]It is definitely not supposed to be sour. It’s just 100% oak smoked wheat malt with a low OG.

I’ve been making them for a few years and can never make enough, easy drinking and flavorful[/quote]

the complete opposite it is sour

The research I have seen is all over the board on this style.

I have seen:

Tart
Sour
Regular German yeast

Sour mash
Acidulated malt
Mix tart yeast with German yeast
Get official yeast (???)

From what I have gathered it is:

A Smoky bitter beer 3% ABV or so with a slight tartness. Super clear with high carbonation. Bottle Conditioned.

I brewed a batch of this back in the fall and it was in fact really good. The level of smoke was right on for my tastes, although it faded a bit with time. Excellent beer and one that I’d brew again.

Now I need to get motivated and brew some sahti.

[quote=“El Capitan”]I brewed a batch of this back in the fall and it was in fact really good. The level of smoke was right on for my tastes, although it faded a bit with time. Excellent beer and one that I’d brew again.

Now I need to get motivated and brew some sahti.[/quote]
I helped brew one last year (in a wood-fired sauna and used a hollowed out log lined with juniper twigs for the lauter - very traditional). Here is a good resource for it:

http://www.posbeer.org/oppaat/sahti/brewing.php

[quote=“El Capitan”]I brewed a batch of this back in the fall and it was in fact really good. The level of smoke was right on for my tastes, although it faded a bit with time. Excellent beer and one that I’d brew again.

[/quote]

I have one going now I brewed 3 weeks ago. I used 100% Oak Smoked Wheat with Junga and Marynska hops. Made a yeast blend of 4 parts Dusseldorf Alt and 1 part Berliner Weiss (For the tartness). It is very clear already and I have not even added the Isinglass yet. I have tasted it once and it is pretty interesting.

I have brewed Gratzer a few times now and it is an interesting beer for sure. Here is a small presentation I gave to me homebrew club:

[quote]The Grodziskie style is also known as Grätzer because the Prussians renamed the town of Grodzisk—located about halfway between Berlin and Warsaw—Grätz in the 19th century after Poland was partitioned, its independence lost for 123 years. The once-popular style languished during Soviet occupation following World War II, seemingly lost forever after the last brewery in Grodzisk closed in 1993.

Grodziskie/Grätzer is a top-fermented, low alcohol, wheat-based, pale-coloured, hoppy, slightly tart, smoked beer, and when I say wheat-based I mean there’s no barley in it. A German technical brewing book published in 1914 described it as a “rough, bitter beer… with an intense smoke and hop flavor.”

The wheat malt for Grodziskie was was dried over oak (sometimes over beech) which imparted a strong hint of smokiness to the beer.

The hops that went into Grodziskie were largely local varieties including Nowotomyski and Polish Lublin, but also some more familiar strains such as Czech Saaz and German Tettnanger and Hallertauer Mittelfrüh. It was very highly hopped, with one or two reports of hops even being introduced during mashing.

Although it had long been brewed solely with wheat, in the 1600s brewers added some barley to the grist and by the middle of the century it had become an all-barley brew, but by the 1690s brewers pulled back on the barley and were making it with one part barley malt to six parts of wheat, and at some point it reverted to all-wheat once more.

Yeast.

Top-fermented. Grodzisk brewers deliberately used a mixture of at least two strains of yeast of different characteristics.
After World War II, for unclear reasons, the brewery imported yeast from Berlin, from the Groterjan brewery, which brewed beer of Berliner Weisse style.The reasons were unclear, because Grodzisk brewery (breweries)continued operating during the
II WW and there was no reason for losing their own strains.Groterjan yeast (often contaminated with lactic acid bacteria) did not adapt well to the Grodzisk conditions. This is more than likely where the tartness documentation originated from recipes of that time.

re:
The tartness in Grodziskie… well, that might be up for debate. A lot of articles make reference to a sour mash technique, which could come either from an introduction of a culture such as lactobacillus, or by keeping part of the previous batch of wort back and adding it to the new batch, just as with sourdough bread. Other articles mention a sourness but that it might have come from the distinct strain of yeast used by Grodziskie brewers, some of which was preserved when the last brewer of this fascinating beer closed in 1993. Some modern recipes are using Acidulated malt to put a little tartness in there.

Beer historian Ron Pattinson and a few of his associates and friends have recreated a Grodziskie but with no sourness at all, an approach which, judging by some of the comments, seems to be the authentic way of doing it, although going back to the American Brewers Review, they describe the flavour as “Delicate, acidulous and wine-like,” so definitely a suggestion of sour there.

What’s interesting about Pattinson’s recreation is that two versions were made – a Grodziskie and a Grätzer, the difference being the addition of willow bark to the latter following his discovery of its inclusion in an old description of Grätzer from the 19th century.

Here is one description:
Appearance: Historical versions would have been straw to golden in colour and crystal clear, due to the use of finings.
ABV: Typically 2.5-3.5% ABV, although versions brewed before the 19th century may have been stronger.
Aroma: Mild smoke, mild ester fruitiness, cereal
Flavour: Smoke, bitter
Body: Light creamy body, due to the low gravity, but still more substantial due to wheat protein content and less attenuation than e.g. Berliner Weisse.

This is a version of style guidelines I found:

26E. Subcategory: Grodzisz/Gratzer
Grodziszs are straw to golden colored. C
hill haze is allowable at cold temperatures. Aroma is dominated by oak smoke notes. Fruity - ester aroma can be low. Diacetyl and DMS aromas should not be perceived. Distinctive character comes from 100% oak wood smoked wheat malt. Overall balance is a sessionably medium to medium-high assertively oak-smoky malt emphasized beer. Hop flavor is very low to low European noble hop flavor notes.
Hop bitterness is medium-low to medium clean hop bitterness. Kölsch-like ale fermentation and aging process
lends a crisp overall flavor impression. Low fruity-ester flavor may be present. Sourness, diacetyl, and DMS should
not be perceived on the palate. Body is low to medium low. Grodzisz (also Grodziskie, and often referred to as
Grätzer since WWII) is a Polish ale style. Historic versions were most often bottle conditioned to relatively high carbonation levels.
Original Gravity (°Plato)
1.028-1.036 (7.1-9.0 °Plato) •
Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (°Plato)
1.006-1.010(1.5-2.6 °Plato) •
Alcohol by Weight (Volume)2.1%-2.9% (2.7%-3.7%) •
Bitterness (IBU)15-25 •
Color SRM(EBC)3-6 (6-12 EBC)

Traditionally done with a step mash (with reheating wort probably a 2 hour mash)
100 deg @ 30 min
125 deg @ 30 min
158 deg @ 30 min

some reports state a 2 to 2-1/2 hour boil

In order to retain the original style attributes, the following components/ acts seem crucial:

water of a similar content to the Grodzisk original (Very hard water)

wheat malt kilned by a oak wood fire

aromatic hops of Polish, Czech or German origin (Mash Hopped as well)

(bitterness 20-22 IBU in beer) (although some recipes list it at 30-40)

mashing schedule and boiling in accordance with the original procedure

top-fermenting yeast (Kölsch-like ale fermentation)

clarification(by isinglass or gelatin)

Bottle Conditioned

Sources:

http://draftmag.com/smoke-signals-grodziskie/ http://www.pspd.org.pl/uploads/grodzisk ... -1-eng.pdf https://eurekabrewing.wordpress.com/201 ... rodziskie/ http://distantmirror.wordpress.com/2010 ... wheat-ale/ http://sfbrewersguild.org/blog/historic ... co-brewers

[/quote]

[quote=“candleman”]

I have one going now I brewed 3 weeks ago. I used 100% Oak Smoked Wheat with Junga and Marynska hops. Made a yeast blend of 4 parts Dusseldorf Alt and 1 part Berliner Weiss (For the tartness). It is very clear already and I have not even added the Isinglass yet. I have tasted it once and it is pretty interesting.[/quote]

By the way the batch with the Berliner yeast was not very good, we brewed it again with German ale/Kolsch yeast and it was a far superior beer. I have another batch going now with GA/Kolsch yeast.