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Number of batches and bragging rights

Northern Brewer General
#21

[quote=“powerball”]I would argue that there’s very few items if any, outside of perhaps some of the minutiae of the chemical reactions taking place, that cannot be reasonably explained in the brewing process.

That’s the nature of communication, though, not everyone can explain everything.[/quote]

Unless you have a phd in brewing or fermentation science you can not explain the whys and how’s of everything that’s happening and the cause and effect of different processes. Even the experts disagree. You make think you can but there’s just too much to understand. Trust me I’ve brewed tens of gallons :shock:

#22

Mindless repetition will make a fool out of a man when things change, which is different than insanity, repeating the same process and expecting different result.

Point being, if you’ve done many, many batches and can’t explain why things are working you’re bound to fail and won’t know why.

#23

You need to realize that just about every single question that can be asked about brewing has already been asked and answered here - some many, many times. If you don’t think that you get enough info in a response, feel free to ask for more detail and you’ll likely get more data than you wanted from someone who has brewed enough to be confident in their opinion to put it out there. And sometimes it does come down to experience on topics that are opinion, not fact, like yeast selection.

#24

Most experienced homebrewers around here will answer the question “why” if anyone asks. When they don’t volunteer the information, it’s probably either for the sake of brevity or it slipped their minds. No bragging or offense intended in probably 99% of cases.

Respect can be given and earned in many ways. Some people respect facts and figures more. Some people respect kindness more. Some people only respect when both are expressed at the same time. There’s no use in trying to please everyone all of the time. All we can expect is that some people will be pleased some of the time.

:slight_smile:

#25

[quote=“powerball”]
Point being, if you’ve done many, many batches and can’t explain why things are working you’re bound to fail and won’t know why.[/quote]
I disagree with the “bound to fail.” If you follow good process blindly, failure is not guaranteed. Indeed, many first classes in many areas of science, art, and even sports, begin with, “just do what I show you, and we’ll get in to the theory AFTER you’ve mastered the basics.” Instructors in these classes are not wrong for withholding information.

You challenge others for citing experience in lieu of scientific fact, but is that not the origin of inductive reasoning? (Not deductive) Sure inductive reasoning isn’t the pinnacle of science or logic, and can lead to incorrect conclusions, but it’s a ton better than refusing to make any attempt until all the theory is understood.

If you’re going to assert that if you “can’t explain why things are working, you’re bound to fail” I challenge you to to cite the mechanism and theory behind that assertion, otherwise it’s just a logical non-sequitur, being sold as fact. Hold your statement to the same standard you’re expecting from other’s statements. What is the minimal amount of understanding of scientific theory required before you are no longer doomed to fail by ignorance?

#26

Or maybe he/she don’t know. For example, I get better efficiency on my lagers with a hockhurz mash. I’m not a scientist and don’t know why, I just do. Guess I’m just ignorant…[/quote]

And that’s the beauty of our hobby. We can make good and great beer without a degree in biology, chemistry, and physics. As I see it, the people who need to know “why” the most are those selling it commercially. Some of the fun of homebrewing is listening to what others have done and experimenting for yourself. I’ve brewed around 30 batches (sorry, had to brag); and for me to not take advice (no matter how much science is presented) from guys like Denny, Dave, Nighthawk (missing that guy), loveofrose (go mead!) and others seems almost arrogant. I’m just thankful for all those on here who are willing to share. I know my beer is better because of all you folks here.

Cheers,

Ron

#27

[quote=“dmtaylo2”]Most experienced homebrewers around here will answer the question “why” if anyone asks. When they don’t volunteer the information, it’s probably either for the sake of brevity or it slipped their minds. No bragging or offense intended in probably 99% of cases.

Respect can be given and earned in many ways. Some people respect facts and figures more. Some people respect kindness more. Some people only respect when both are expressed at the same time. There’s no use in trying to please everyone all of the time. All we can expect is that some people will be pleased some of the time.

:slight_smile: [/quote]

+1 to this and Shade’s response.

If someone asks why they are tasting green apple in their beer, I can go into a lengthy explanation of acetaldehyde being an intermediate compound in fermentation, or I can say, “you took it off the yeast too soon”. Frankly, I find the former to be more braggy than the latter.

As to the OP’s ‘fool’ comment, I would say ‘maybe’. Some people need to know science behind what happens, some use experience. For most, its a mix of the two.

Finally, as the original question, I suppose there could be a bit of chest-beating in those “X gallons over X years” qualifications, but I think its more of a statement to give some well-deserved weight to the opinion one is about to give. Oh and by the way, the opinion he or she was usually ASKED for.

#28

Powerball I get what your saying to a point. A similar example is the relationship between post count and having actual knowledge about brewing. Someone copy and paste answers to every message board post while brewing365 batches a year and still produce beer that is riddled with technical flaws. Yes that is obviously true

But still I think technical information less important than aquired practical knowledge especially as homebrewers who lack a dedicated lab to analyze things.I dont know about you but im not doing a cell count with a hemocytometer before every batch but I consistently have complete fermentations free from inappropriate flavors. I make yeast starters, I oxygenate, and I control fermentation temperatures but do I know an algorithm in which yeast multiply? No. Do I need to in order to make quality beer. No.

Say we were talking about archery. I could read every book written on the subject, measure wind speed and direction for optimal conditions, and understand every law of physics that takes place in order to shoot an arrow but if i couldnt hit the target (brew good beer) would I really know more than soneone else that has spent years honing his skill shooting arrow after arrow until the target was being hit consistently?

#29

It all depends on how you look at it. Some as an art, some as science. I never got that into the science view. That is not to say there is a thing wrong with it. Keep everything clean, use common sense and it will come out beer. Good beer. When I see some complicated formula my eyes kind of glaze over. To others that is part of the fun of brewing. Hey good for you! I have been brewing for a long time so I would guess I have made a lot of batches. Well so what? I rarely share my beer with anyone because most of our friends drink something that ends in “light” or “lite”. My beer is brewed for me so there is only one guy that needs to like it :wink: I am always willing to share my experiences here, good or bad in the hope that it will help another brewer out. Most everyone here feels the same way.

So if you want to brag about how many batches you have done, go ahead. It is an incentive to get out there and make more beer to catch up!

#30

The irony in this post is fascinating. Powerball seems to want more scientific and understood explanations (we have found out after a few posts because it wasn’t…ahem…explained very well).

It has already been mentioned that part of it is brevity and one shouldn’t assume everyone is spewing all of their related knowledge in every post.

But the number of batches that something has been done is very important, especially if the reasoning behind it isn’t fully understood. That’s called “sample size” and the larger it is with similar results, the more likely you can expect it to occur the next time you brew (to go against the quote you made above).

If you don’t care about prior experience, why go to a message board? If you want thorough explanations, there are plenty of great books that you can read and learn from or, as mentioned above, just ask “why?”

#31

This is so incredibly ignorant. Do you think every person who bakes a cake understands the reason WHY their cake tastes good? Yet cake recipes have been handed down for centuries with some very specific instructions on how to reproduce the results.

#32

OTOH, if you’ve done many, many batches you will likely know why things do or don’t work.

#33

Maybe you need to get a clearer picture of who we are. We are ‘Home Brewers’! We are a band of brothers, FRIENDS!( Ya guys I consider us friends). Picture us standing around having a pint and BS’ing about our beers, like friends do. Shade says I made this, Josh says I’ve been having this problem, Dave says I fixed that by doing this, or Matt says, I did that. Denny says if you do this, or any of us says this or that, we are friends who love our hobby and want to help each other out. Obviously because of where we live we can’t physically get together to talk things out . That’s what this forum is about. I can’t afford a degree in brewing from an institution. I’ve studied books. Yes I’ve been brewing for 20+ yrs doesn’t mean I’m a pro. Made good ones and bad. BUT I’VE HAD ONE HELL OF A LOT OF HELP FROM MY FRIENDS!!!

#34

Can I get an “AMEN BROTHER”?

Most eloquently put, Old Guy.

:cheers:
Ron

#35

Can I get an “AMEN BROTHER”?

Most eloquently put, Old Guy.

:cheers:
Ron[/quote]
Amen brotha!

#36

I think this clip is most appropriate…

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