A guy in one of my clubs has a nano set up, and since he is not licensed yet, he is essentially doing a brewery co-op thing where local homebrewers chip in for the ingredient purchases, help on brewday, then we split up wort. We are brewing the following on Saturday:
88gal expected yield, assuming 70% mash efficiency:
34.5 IBU
8.2 SRM
1.078 OG
Its kind of a ‘busy’ grain bill, but he suggested the following beers, some with modifications/dilution:
I also don’t agree that this grain bill is anywhere near a Berliner.
Since I have two big cakes lying around (3711 and 2565), I was thinking of diluting down to 1.058 (my calculation says I will need 9 gallons of wort, split into two fermenters, diluted with 1.5 gallons of water each), doing two batches, each with 6 gallons pre-ferment of DILUTED wort.
I have two big clean/pre-decanted cakes of 3711 French Saison and WY 2565 kolsch. I know the 3711 would work well with this grain bill, but what about the kolsch yeast for a lagerish beer? I may be able to grow up a 3rd/4thish generation of clean S-05 and could also use that I suppose.
Thoughts are appreciated. Yet another alternative is to boil and hop the water I am adding to make one of them an IPAish/hop-forward beer.
I would use 3711 in both fermenters, one diluted down to about 1.050 and the other undiluted. I also don’t agree with much of what he said about modifications to the base wort, but am particularly opposed to #2 (boiling hops in water to make an IPA). And what’s up with FWHing with Warrior?
I mean 1.078 is a pretty big beer. It could basically be an old ale if I could find a way to add some unfermentable sugars to it or maybe just some molasses.
This guy is known for non-traditional methods, but the boiling water to increase bitterness did pique my piquity. Is that a retched horrible idea? It seems like it might be.
FWHing with Warrior sounds ridiculous to me as well. I had always thought of FWH’ing as similar to a 20-minute addition. Warrior is a bittering hop, nothing more. I think his intention was to keep it neutral in case people wanted to mess with it. Part of me is wondering whether this wort is worth $4/gallon.
1.078 with 3711 will end up around 10% ABV - a BIG Saison that will need to be fermented on the cool side for at least a week and then aged for a couple months at least, then dryhopped before drinking. Should be fun to drink next winter.
Boiling hops in water results in a nasty, grassy flavored and unpleasantly bitter tea. You could take one gallon of the wort and boil some hops in it to up the bitterness, though (this works great, but it can take a fair amount of hops to boost the IBUs).
$4 a gallon is probably worth it just to play with something new.
[quote=“Shadetree”]1.078 with 3711 will end up around 10% ABV - a BIG Saison that will need to be fermented on the cool side for at least a week and then aged for a couple months at least, then dryhopped before drinking. Should be fun to drink next winter.
Boiling hops in water results in a nasty, grassy flavored and unpleasantly bitter tea. You could take one gallon of the wort and boil some hops in it to up the bitterness, though (this works great, but it can take a fair amount of hops to boost the IBUs).
$4 a gallon is probably worth it just to play with something new.[/quote]
Yeah, I made a 10% saison that has been aging for over a year and its ok. JUST ok. I think I’d rather dilute both, do one with a saison yeast, and one with a more neutral yeast and actually (hopefully) make drinkable beer with it.
Going to ask him about FWH’ing though and no bittering charge. Just seems ridiculous.
Just a follow up - only did one 5g batch of the wort. It is/was amazing. Ended up dry hopping with 2oz of green bullet (similar to Fuggle, but more intense earth, spice, light floral).
Fermented with 3711, pitched @ 66, ramped up to 72 over 6 days. got about 88% attenuation. This beer has a really delicate bitterness which lets the yeast and rye character shine. I might try FWHing my 60 minute hops on an IPA!
[quote=“Pietro”][quote=“Shadetree”][quote=“Pietro”]I might try FWHing my 60 minute hops on an IPA![/quote]That’ll make it an APA.[/quote]not sure i agree with that one.[/quote]IME, FWH with no 60-min addition will not yield the biting bitterness that’s one of the defining characteristics of the American IPA.
I do not have any direct experience using FWH in lieu of a true bittering charge, but I have heard that this practice is becoming more and more common.
I had originally understood (and used/treated) FWH additions as similar to a 20-minute addition. While it will measure as higher IBU’s, one doesn’t necessarily perceive them.
Also, I know the style guidelines say that hop bitterness should be med-high to high on AIPAs/IIPA’s, IMO the best ones (Pliny, Maharasha, Flower Power, Racer 5) have a bitterness that is very balanced with complex malt. I feel like on a smaller AIPA (1.060-65), a FWH-only addition might be the ticket (and have heard so from others).
On my next one on the 1/2 bbl system, I might try a FWH on the mash, then pull 5 gallons to do a separate boil with no 60 minute addition and see how it turns out compared to the main boil, with a neutral bittering hop.
[quote=“Pietro”]I do not have any direct experience using FWH in lieu of a true bittering charge, but I have heard that this practice is becoming more and more common.[/quote]Everyone has an opinion and I just base my comments on my own experience as much as possible - I’ve used FWH with no bittering charge on a fair number of beers and for my tastebuds the end result can’t be called an American IPA. For reference, I would call Anchor Liberty an APA, though, so my expectation for the style is towards the upper end of the spectrum (1.065+ and 70+ IBUs).
If you do your split batch, please report back your impressions of the two beers!
If you do your split batch, please report back your impressions of the two beers![/quote]
Will do. One thing I didn’t mention is IMO, the WORST IPA’s are the ones with a harsh astringent bitterness (which I understand you are not referring to). My general rule is to get about 20-30% of the total calculated IBU’s from 60 min additions and the rest from 20 minute and later additions.
[quote=“Pietro”]One thing I didn’t mention is IMO, the WORST IPA’s are the ones with a harsh astringent bitterness (which I understand you are not referring to). My general rule is to get about 20-30% of the total calculated IBU’s from 60 min additions and the rest from 20 minute and later additions.[/quote]My favorite commercial IPA is Ruination (yeah it’s technically a IIPA). Green Flash West Coast will do if I’m in the mood for a little more hop complexity. I shoot for 50% of IBUs from the 60-min addition and the rest from a combo of FWH (30%, calc’ed as 20-min) and whirlpool (calc’ed as 15-min) - this approach lets me boil to the proper OG without having to worry about messing up the hop profile.
I just pitched Brett onto a 1.080 Saison brewed with 3711. The hydrometer sample was incredible, even flat and at 80 degrees. I held it at 62F for the first few days, then let it rise to the mid-60’s on its own. After about 10 days I hooked up my brew belt and let 'er rip. It was still plenty spicy and had a lot of that 3711 character. The key is to let it start cool before you start ramping up the temp.
+1 on the starting cool thing. In my old club in Baltimore (which had a lot of great brewers), there was this weird conventional wisdom that saisons needed to be fermented hot. I guess it must have emanated from when Dupont was the only commercially-available saison yeast.
My saisons (including the trip, though I used 566 Saison II as opposed to WY 3711) are typically pitched at 66, held for 3 days, then raised up to 72 or so by 1 degree per day. And i’m with you, I get PLENTY of yeast character and no fusels that I can perceive.
Wait, so was the sample you had brett’d or before brett?
