I usually get 85-87% with a single infusion mash, so in terms of efficiency there’s really no reason for me to do more work! Do you check your conversion efficiency?
deliusism,
Maybe start a thread so we can crack the code to your efficiency woes? :cheers:
For the record, Dr. Michael Lewis (Stout style book author) calls oatmeal “an undesirable grain” and in his own experience, oatmeal is “astringent and hardly akin to the silky character commonly detected in such stouts by beer writers”. (trying my darndest to keep this thread on track :lol: ) He also has some pH recommendations (which I assume are at mash temps BTW) but grab the book, it’s a great one and it includes some cool info from pro stout brewers…
(edit Dr. Lewis’ credentials)
[quote=“zwiller”]deliusism,
Maybe start a thread so we can crack the code to your efficiency woes? :cheers:
For the record, Dr. Michael Lewis (Stout style book author) calls oatmeal “an undesirable grain” and in his own experience, oatmeal is “astringent and hardly akin to the silky character commonly detected in such stouts by beer writers”. (trying my darndest to keep this thread on track :lol: ) He also has some pH recommendations (which I assume are at mash temps BTW) but grab the book, it’s a great one and it includes some cool info from pro stout brewers…
(edit Dr. Lewis’ credentials)[/quote]
I already own a copy of that very book. It’s sitting just a few feet away from me as I’m writing this. I’ve had it for years, and I’ve been looking through it again within the last few days. I don’t know where he gets that idea about oatmeal, though. I’ve never experienced any such problem with oatmeal in my stouts. Regarding my mash efficiency, I don’t really have a problem with getting 75% as long as it’s consistent. That having been said, I’d certainly like to get more like 85% on a regular basis, but going much beyond that figure runs the risk of extracting some undesirable stuff from the grains, anyway, especially in dark beers. I know there will be some who will argue against that warning, but I’ve been told that by a professional brewmaster, so I have to weigh it accordingly. As for mash pH, I use 5.2 pH stabilizer in all my mashes, and have for years, although I still use mineral additions to hit my target water profiles per style.But I’m pretty inclined to give up that practice and start getting more serious about predicting and measuring mash pH more rigorously. I just don’t have a pH meter at the moment, and I don’t get to brew as often as I’d like to, either, so I just kind of stick with what equipment I have and only invest in new stuff when I can really afford to.
I think that book kind of sucks. Most of the “Classic Style Series” books are excellent though but that one seems woefully outdated.
I won’t go quite as far as to say that it sucks, but it’s definitely not up there with the best in the series. There’s very little information in it that’s pertinent to homebrewers who want to replicate the style, in my opinion. It’s mostly about the history of the style, and the flavor and aroma elements present in commercial examples of the style, and there’s very little in it about how homebrewers can achieve those same characteristics. It’s definitely written in a pretty different style than the rest of the series. To be honest, though, a lot of the books in that series suffer from the same problem, in my opinion. Some just happen to be a bit more precise than others regarding recipe formulation and conditioning. I think the best in that series (of the ones I’ve read, anyway) are the ones on bock and pale ale (2nd edition).
[quote=“deliusism1”][quote=“zwiller”]deliusism,
Maybe start a thread so we can crack the code to your efficiency woes? :cheers:
For the record, Dr. Michael Lewis (Stout style book author) calls oatmeal “an undesirable grain” and in his own experience, oatmeal is “astringent and hardly akin to the silky character commonly detected in such stouts by beer writers”. (trying my darndest to keep this thread on track :lol: ) He also has some pH recommendations (which I assume are at mash temps BTW) but grab the book, it’s a great one and it includes some cool info from pro stout brewers…
(edit Dr. Lewis’ credentials)[/quote]
I already own a copy of that very book. It’s sitting just a few feet away from me as I’m writing this. I’ve had it for years, and I’ve been looking through it again within the last few days. I don’t know where he gets that idea about oatmeal, though. I’ve never experienced any such problem with oatmeal in my stouts. Regarding my mash efficiency, I don’t really have a problem with getting 75% as long as it’s consistent. That having been said, I’d certainly like to get more like 85% on a regular basis, but going much beyond that figure runs the risk of extracting some undesirable stuff from the grains, anyway, especially in dark beers. I know there will be some who will argue against that warning, but I’ve been told that by a professional brewmaster, so I have to weigh it accordingly. As for mash pH, I use 5.2 pH stabilizer in all my mashes, and have for years, although I still use mineral additions to hit my target water profiles per style.But I’m pretty inclined to give up that practice and start getting more serious about predicting and measuring mash pH more rigorously. I just don’t have a pH meter at the moment, and I don’t get to brew as often as I’d like to, either, so I just kind of stick with what equipment I have and only invest in new stuff when I can really afford to.[/quote]
75% ain’t bad at all. I get that doing the single batch sparge. You got it though, at least it’s consistent. Never used 5.2 so can’t comment on it’s use. Forget the meter, just download and learn bru’n water. If you are not already, acidifying sparge water might get you the bump in efficiency you’re after. I imagine none of us are able to brew often enough as we’d like…
I will agree that it is outdated with respect to the micro/craft beers covered but I think it is most technical of the series. I dig that but I can see some guys wouldn’t appreciate it. It is definitely NOT the book to get if you’re after a bunch of recipes. That said, I like Foster’s Pale Ale the most of the series. Great writing style and pertinent info. Really was hoping the 2nd edition would get more in depth with IPAs but that at least Steele took care of that.
[quote=“zwiller”]deliusism,
Maybe start a thread so we can crack the code to your efficiency woes? :cheers:
For the record, Dr. Michael Lewis (Stout style book author) calls oatmeal “an undesirable grain” and in his own experience, oatmeal is “astringent and hardly akin to the silky character commonly detected in such stouts by beer writers”. (trying my darndest to keep this thread on track :lol: ) He also has some pH recommendations (which I assume are at mash temps BTW) but grab the book, it’s a great one and it includes some cool info from pro stout brewers…
(edit Dr. Lewis’ credentials)[/quote]
IMO that’s the worst book of the entire series…although I agree with him about oatmeal.
Can’t say that I own all books in the series (not remotely interested in Smoked Beer) but I’d say Vienna takes the cake, with Belgian not very far off. To each his own…
I like oatmeal for an oatmeal stout. It has a silkinesss that is not astringent in my mind and palate,but as with many things, YMMV. If you over use the OM, I agree it canbe less palatable.
I’ve tried and tried and have never been able to get that silkiness in an oatmeal stout (like you get from Sam Smith). What’s the secret? At this point, I’m pretty sure it isn’t the oats.
I think oatmeal stout is like pumpkin beer in that the ingredient is not what really makes the beer. There’s no oatmeal stout recipe in Lewis’ book or I would have put it up. There is a good chance flaked barley provides the silkiness. I think dry stouts are quite silky and are well known to be of 20% flaked barley…
This is where I would start:
60% pale
15% flaked barley
10% crystal (mid L for caramel or high L for dark fruit)
10% roast barley
5% oatmeal
:cheers:
I’ve tried and tried and have never been able to get that silkiness in an oatmeal stout (like you get from Sam Smith). What’s the secret? At this point, I’m pretty sure it isn’t the oats.[/quote]
I agree with you and I was just reading about this somewhere. I’ll see if I can find the citation, but it matches my experience.
Personally, the silkiness is not what I’m after in an oatmeal stout, although that’s a good trait in any stout. Good body is not really all that hard to achieve in most any style of beer, in my opinion. What I experience in the best oatmeal stouts is a certain graininess, for lack of a better word, that’s pretty hard to put into words, and to create. It’s something I’ve just never come across in any other style of beer, when it’s done properly. Goose Island’s oatmeal stout really exemplified what I’m talking about, and it hasn’t been available in my area for years. I’m thinking it’s probably long since disappeared from their portfolio. I never do clone beers, but I’d be pretty interested in seeing a recipe for that one, just to get an idea of how they made it.
[quote=“zwiller”]I think oatmeal stout is like pumpkin beer in that the ingredient is not what really makes the beer. There’s no oatmeal stout recipe in Lewis’ book or I would have put it up. There is a good chance flaked barley provides the silkiness. I think dry stouts are quite silky and are well known to be of 20% flaked barley…
This is where I would start:
60% pale
15% flaked barley
10% crystal (mid L for caramel or high L for dark fruit)
10% roast barley
5% oatmeal
:cheers: [/quote]
Nope. I’ve tried the flaked barley too, and as far as I can tell it doesn’t contribute “silkiness” either.
After some digging, I am seeing references to toasting the oats to emulate Sam Smith, including several guys saying it it “THE” flavor. Also, many references point to using chocolate malt with the roasted barley. That makes sense. It’s funny to see the amount of “clones” of this fine beer using Irish yeast… I guess WL Yorkshire is the real SS yeast.
Interesting about the toasting. I’ve seen a few recipes that use toasted oats, and they all rave about how it gives an oatmeal cookie flavor, which I would not think is the SS flavor, but perhaps in very small amounts the toasted oats could work. The chocolate does make sense, but still doesn’t answer the question about the mouthfeel. I’m guessing the yeast might be the key there. Never used Yorkshire before, might have to give it a try.
The other thing I’m wondering might be a factor could be conversion efficiency or something similar. Perhaps the mouthfeel comes from keeping a significant % of poorly converted starches in the wort, or high levels of proteins?
It is clear that oatmeal is rich in beta glucans/gums and in theory these SHOULD be providing some extra body and mouthfeel. The question is, do they survive the mash and make into the beer? It is likely the average homebrewer is mashing stout a bit on the low side of pH (5.2-5.4) where beta amalyse is most active and I wonder if this would denature them. If a mash was conducted on the higher side of pH (5.6-5. 8) where alpha amylase is most active, alpha could not denature the beta glucans and they would end up in the beer. Just a thought and I cannot cite references…
Interesting about the toasting. I’ve seen a few recipes that use toasted oats, and they all rave about how it gives an oatmeal cookie flavor, which I would not think is the SS flavor, but perhaps in very small amounts the toasted oats could work. The chocolate does make sense, but still doesn’t answer the question about the mouthfeel. I’m guessing the yeast might be the key there. Never used Yorkshire before, might have to give it a try.
The other thing I’m wondering might be a factor could be conversion efficiency or something similar. Perhaps the mouthfeel comes from keeping a significant % of poorly converted starches in the wort, or high levels of proteins?[/quote]
They do also use a small amount of lactose in the Samuel Smith oatmeal stout. I’m pretty sure that’s the reason for the full mouthfeel, or at least one of the reasons.
Interesting about the toasting. I’ve seen a few recipes that use toasted oats, and they all rave about how it gives an oatmeal cookie flavor, which I would not think is the SS flavor, but perhaps in very small amounts the toasted oats could work. The chocolate does make sense, but still doesn’t answer the question about the mouthfeel. I’m guessing the yeast might be the key there. Never used Yorkshire before, might have to give it a try.
The other thing I’m wondering might be a factor could be conversion efficiency or something similar. Perhaps the mouthfeel comes from keeping a significant % of poorly converted starches in the wort, or high levels of proteins?[/quote]
They do also use a small amount of lactose in the Samuel Smith oatmeal stout. I’m pretty sure that’s the reason for the full mouthfeel, or at least one of the reasons.[/quote]
Lactose contributes a bit, but actually gives more sweetness than fullness of mouthfeel. And it definitely doesn’t make it “silky”. Tried that too.
