I think I'm done brewing IPA's

Northern Brewer General
1

So my most recent attempt to brew an IPA has failed once again. They are terrible. They are drinkable but just nowhere near any commercial example. There seems to be a distinct flavor and aroma that they all have that I can’t seem to place. The aroma is a very flowery/grassy scent. Not unpleasant but never what I’m hoping for. The flavor is almost a tangy almost cheesy flavor.

I’ve tried many different variables. I’ve tried 100% local water, 50/50 diluted with distilled and 100% distilled. I’ve tried many different yeasts. I’ve tried my own recipes and NB kits.

The thing is, I haven’t had this flavor/aroma in any of my other beers. Just my IPA’s. At this point I am quite frustrated and may just stick with buying commerical IPA’s and brewing other beers.

2

Not much help, but the tangy/cheesy descriptor sounds like old or oxidized hops. Could you be aerating your beer somewhere post-fermentation, like in an auto-siphon or in a bottling wand? I seem to recall that you stir frequently during bottling - maybe this is introducing too much oxygen? I know, weak at best. But it would make sense with it only showing up in IPAs.

3

The hops have been fresh as far as I know. I only buy what I need for a recipe and only buy them at most 2 weeks before I brew. Most of them have come from NB so I assume I wouldn’t have a consistent problem of old hops.

The oxidation is something I haven’t thought of. I do notice that my bottling wand makes that “gurgling” noise a lot when filling bottles. It makes me cringe every time cause I know there is a risk of oxidation but I have found no way to combat it and kegging is out of the question due to having no room in my house.

4

I had a problem with the spigot on my bottling bucket pulling in air. It must have gotten worn from taking it apart to clean it. I’ve been replacing the spigots a few times a year now.

5

I have noticed that when I restrict the flow from the spigot it happens less frequently. Takes a bit longer to bottle but worth the peace of mind.

6

Would hoppy beers be more susceptible to oxidation than other beers? I wouldn’t think so, and as this is only an IPA issue, I would doubt oxidation is the problem.

Is there a specific type of hop you use in all your IPAs? It might simply be a problem with a flavor from a variety that hits your taste buds wrong. For example, I can’t stand the taste of Amarillo in a beer. It just seems to destroy any enjoyment I would get out of it. And many IPAs seem to use that hop, which always makes me pause before ordering one in a bar.

7

[quote=“rebuiltcellars”]Would hoppy beers be more susceptible to oxidation than other beers? I wouldn’t think so, and as this is only an IPA issue, I would doubt oxidation is the problem.

Is there a specific type of hop you use in all your IPAs? It might simply be a problem with a flavor from a variety that hits your taste buds wrong. For example, I can’t stand the taste of Amarillo in a beer. It just seems to destroy any enjoyment I would get out of it. And many IPAs seem to use that hop, which always makes me pause before ordering one in a bar.[/quote]

These are the hop combos ive used:

  • Warrior, Falconers Flight, Cascade

  • Simcoe, Amarillo, Columbus, Apollo

  • Nugget, Cascade, Mosaic

  • Centennial (Dead Ringer)

  • Simcoe, Cascade

  • Simcoe, Amarillo, Cascade

  • Magnum, Centennial

I don’t think any of those combos contain too much of the same. The Dead Ringer I made tasted exactly like 2-hearted with the addition of this flavor.

8

Not trying to be argumentative, but my thinking is that some of the volatile compounds in hop oils are quite sensitive to oxidation. With IPAs having so much of an influence from the hop aromatics, a breakdown in some of these could certainly lead to an off flavor that would not be as apparent in other styles.

Then again, I could be completely wrong! :lol:

Matt, what’s the earliest in your process where you notice the off flavor?

9

What kind of water profile are you brewing to?

10

I recommend taking some bottles to a local homebrew club meeting to see if someone can help you pinpoint the flavor and source.

If you’re not in a club: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/c … brew-club/

11

Edit, dang, can’t keep up with you guys…

Bottling wand is suspect but I think oxidation issues are a bit overstated. What kind of wand and bottling setup you got? To me, it’s likely you got a bit more yeast and trub in the beer since you can’t cold crash, add to that extra hoppiness and O2, and now you have the opportunity for isovaleric acid. There should be no gurgling or foam during bottling. I quick google of the issue and others report similar problems. Apparently spring filled wands are causing this. There’s no spring in mine, it works by gravity. HANG IN THERE!

We could meet up and I could check it out, I am BJCP.

12

[quote=“kcbeersnob”]I recommend taking some bottles to a local homebrew club meeting to see if someone can help you pinpoint the flavor and source.

If you’re not in a club: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/c … brew-club/[/quote]
Good suggestion. Hard to describe an off flavor, but chances are you’ll find someone at a club that knows exactly what it is.

13

Not trying to be argumentative, but my thinking is that some of the volatile compounds in hop oils are quite sensitive to oxidation. With IPAs having so much of an influence from the hop aromatics, a breakdown in some of these could certainly lead to an off flavor that would not be as apparent in other styles.

Then again, I could be completely wrong! :lol:

Matt, what’s the earliest in your process where you notice the off flavor?[/quote]

You are not wrong. Hop-forward beers oxidize EXTREMELY easily.

I think I know the flavor Matt is describing. And frankly, I’m sorry to say, unless you want to upgrade to a kegging system, you may* be stuck with it. Bottle-conditioning/refermenting IPA’s is tough, because I always got this flavor a few years back when I bottled. Then I had a friends Off The Topper, which was bottle-conditioned, and it was good, but it had this flavor. I thought it was extract-twang, but more likely it was exposed to oxygen.

Oxygen in hoppy beers is basically like a hand grenade going off. Intermediate fermentation compounds like acetaldehyde can come back out. So its not just the cardboard flavor. Oxidation can cause all sorts of nonsense.

I know a lot of people say that the additional CO2 made by the yeast in refermentation/bottle conditioning helps as an antioxidant, but picture it: on bottling day, your bottle is filled to the neck with beer and priming solution. Above it in the neck is ambient air (o2, Co2, etc.) You cap it. During the referment, the yeast makes additional CO2 which floats into the headspace, until it runs out of room, and then it (and all the other ambient air in the headspace, including O2) gets absorbed into the liquid, once again blasting your beer with oxygen.

*two things I might try if you haven’t already before hanging up the hop spider:
1.) O2-absorbing crowns. These work. I’ve tried them on beers 1-2 years old, next to beers that didn’t use them. definitely a palpable difference. I personally think these will help with your situation as well, as the antioxidant compounds in the crowns’ liners bond to O2 (again, that is in the headspace of the bottle)
2.) get a new bottling wand and/or check the connection to the bottling bucket’s spigot. It should not be gurgling. That sounds like each beer you bottle is getting blasted with oxygen and whatever other gases are present in the air.

14

[quote=“zwiller”]Edit, dang, can’t keep up with you guys…

Bottling wand is suspect but I think oxidation issues are a bit overstated. What kind of wand and bottling setup you got? To me, it’s likely you got a bit more yeast and trub in the beer since you can’t cold crash, add to that extra hoppiness and O2, and now you have the opportunity for isovaleric acid. There should be no gurgling or foam during bottling. I quick google of the issue and others report similar problems. Apparently spring filled wands are causing this. There’s no spring in mine, it works by gravity. HANG IN THERE!

We could meet up and I could check it out, I am BJCP.[/quote]

I use the gravity controlled bottling wand as well. I don’t like those spring controlled ones. Too much of a pain to clean.

Free time is hard to come by lately but I would be willing to ship some to you. If you wouldn’t mind, you could PM me your address and I can hopefully package some up and get it out this week.

15

As much I hate to admit, I think Pietro is right. Dude, it’s Ohio; stick the fridge on the porch! :cheers: Sending PM.

16

Except for those 3 months out of the year when I’d be dealing with frozen homebrew!

17

Aquarium heater and temp controller!

18

Not trying to be argumentative, but my thinking is that some of the volatile compounds in hop oils are quite sensitive to oxidation. With IPAs having so much of an influence from the hop aromatics, a breakdown in some of these could certainly lead to an off flavor that would not be as apparent in other styles.

Then again, I could be completely wrong! :lol:

Matt, what’s the earliest in your process where you notice the off flavor?[/quote]

This, and I think one is setting themselves up for failure when bottle conditioning IPA. These beers really need to be kegged for maximum flavor benefit. But this is based of my experience of never really having a bottle conditioned IPA that tasted very good. I know Deschutes bottle conditions their beers… not a fan. Their kegged beers taste so much better.

I think IPA tends to show more off flavors because you tend to notice more when those bright citrusy flavors you were expecting aren’t what they should be.

But I’d take a look at your bottling setup to see if you can improve it, Matt. Sounds like that’s a potential spot. I’ve had trouble with IPA’s as well. They tend to be bitter/grassy. I have an IPL on tap right now that is just what I’m wanting. I think the lager yeast was the answer for what I’m after. It really balances the malt and hop character out for me.

19

c’mon, you love it when I’m right :mrgreen:

20

One thing that I think helps, or at least makes me feel better about it, is racking with a hose that is much longer than necessary. The added length creates turbulence inside the hose and knocks out additional CO2 from suspension, in that I can see the bubbles forming in the length of hose. Not only does it set up a gentle swirl without splashing in the secondary or bottling bucket, but hopefully it’s displacing some of the oxygen in the vessel with CO2. The hose I use wraps around the inside of the carboy a couple of times.

Now this has me thinking - Campden is used in wines as an anti-oxidant when racking. The sulfites are supposed to prevent the oxygen from binding with the wine and oxidizing it. I wonder if a small dose of k-meta would help prevent oxidation of a bottle-conditioned IPA without stunning the yeast… With the higher pH of beer vs. wine, it certainly wouldn’t be as effective as a sanitizer but might still help with the oxidation part.