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How to achieve a great NEIPA?

Been trying to perfect an NEIPA for several batches and just can’t quite nail it.
Don’t get me wrong, the beer is good, but it doesn’t have that hazy/orange color to it like I get in the local brew houses. Would not classify these as NEIPA’s.
They seem to start off with a nice color when I brew and transfer to the secondary but after a week in the carboy, the color starts to turn from orange to amber.
After a 6 week total process, when I pour from the keg, it’s an amber color. Not getting that fruity taste either.
Looks exactly the same if I brewed with Gold Malt Extract.
These are my last 2 batches. I am always messing around with hops, using whatever is left over in my stock pile.
I mix between the All Grain/Extract depending on time I have that brew day…
Extract:
3# Dry Pilsen
3# Dry Wheat
2# Dextrose
1oz Summit & 2oz Columbus 30 min
3oz Columbus 20min
1oz Columbus Dry Hop secondary
1oz Columbus Dry Hop 4 days later in secondary
Salale-33

All Grain:
Mash start 160, ended at 140 (1hr). Sparge at 170.
12# 2-Row
1# Flaked Wheat
1# Flaked Oat
6oz Columbus at flame out
2oz Newport Dry hop
Salale-05

Also did a batch with all DME Pilsen, Chinook, and used WLP095 Burlington Ale. That too came out Amber when it was tapped and the fruit taste just wasn’t there…

Any thoughts what I might be doing wrong on the color/taste?

Don’t do a secondary for a NEIPA and also you look a little light on the dry hops. Ferment and get it kegged in 7-10 days. Fresh fresh fresh. 6weeks is old for a NEIPA in my opinion. Also use a lower floc yeast of the three yeast wlp095 would be good

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Tanal A (as learned from the end of Episode 116) is the brewery cheat to keep a hazy suspension in your home-brew.

Also unless you are transferring under Co2 to your keg I don’t think it’s possible to keep a hazy beer that juicey color because of oxidation (unless you drink it right away)

@BrianS what temperature is your flame out? I have improved all my flame out flavors by reducing the temperature to 170F or under before adding the hops for my 20 minute stand.

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First off, Welcome! These two brewers are good help… And there are a few more whom dedicate their palates to NEIPA’s that will show up and help giving you guiding points…
I thought I’ve read English ale yeast… Lotsa oats, a bunch of hops and as quick as possible into the keg… (As with any IPA). Wasn’t dry hopping (DH) being done just at the tail end of yeast activity? Bio transformation ? Or has that been left along the roadside now…?
Sneezles61

What your experiencing is oxidation. I suspect your kegging. Are you able to keg under CO2? Look into some things that you can do to keep O2 uptake low post fermentation.
In regards to your ‘fruitiness.’ First your choice of yeast isn’t exactly the NEIPA fruity strains. They now make a dry NEIPA yeast yet I have not tried it. Lots of liquid strains out there to help you in the endeavor.
I agree with @brew_cat that you’re low on your hops. Your first batch you layered your additions and the second you didn’t. I would suggest that you go back to layering. In addition, your choice of hops aren’t really ‘fruity.’ I would suggest throwing some well know fruity hops like Citra.
In regards to your grain bill/turbidity. You’re low on adjuncts that will increase haze. I would suggest utilizing more and adding wheat malt to your grist. Also, NO KETTLE FININGS OR POST FININGS.
@squeegeethree mentioned ‘tanal A’ which will assist in setting permanent haze. It will work if you can get your hands on it.

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All great suggestions so far as I do mostly NEIPA’s. My grain bills are typically the same and I try different hop combos while using either Wyeast 1318 or WLP 066 (London Fog). More hops for sure and flaked oats will help with haze. I just started transferring under pressure and also only boil for 45 mins. Here is my latest creation and it may be my best brew to date.

That Bitch Carol Baskins

Recipe specifics:

Style: American IPA
Batch size: 10.5 gal
Boil volume: 13.0 gal
OG: 1.066
FG: 1.017
Bitterness (IBU): 30.9
Color (SRM): 9.7
ABV: 6.5%

Grain/Sugars:

14.00 lb Maris Otter Malt, 47.5%
6.50 lb Flaked Oats, 22.0%
6.00 lb Two-row (US), 20.3%
2.00 lb White Wheat, 6.8%
1.00 lb Crystal 40L, 3.4%

Hops:

2.50 oz Citra (AA 12.8%, Pellet) 20 min, 30.9 IBU
4.00 oz Amarillo (AA 8.0%, Pellet) 0 min, 0.0 IBU
3.00 oz Citra (AA 12.0%, Pellet) 0 min, 0.0 IBU
5.10 oz Amarillo (AA 8.0%, Pellet) dry hop
4.00 oz Cashmere (AA 7.2%, Pellet) dry hop
3.40 oz Citra (AA 12.0%, Pellet) dry hop
2.00 oz Citra (AA 12.0%, Pellet) dry hop
2.00 oz Citra (AA 12.0%, Pellet) dry hop
4.25 oz Sabro (AA 14.5%, Pellet) dry hop

Recipe Notes:

Mash temp 153°
Mash pH 5.5

Batch Notes:

5.1oz Amarillo and 3.4oz Citra dry hopped in Unitank 48 hrs in to fermentation.

4.25oz Sabro and 2oz Citra dry hopped in keg 1.

4oz Cashmere and 2oz Citra dry hopped in keg 2.

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Looks like you got it down. Not my favorite style but I brew them occasionally to work on the process. Mine only hold that juicy look for a couple weeks. I don’t transfer under CO2 but do purge my kegs

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I’m surprised that none of you were baited into clicking on that tanal link. It was new to me and I promise, despite the look of the word, g rated brewing material.

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Been working on these things for 2 years now. With the help of new equipment and learning from past brews, I think I have nailed it down pretty good. I really need to get some water chemistry software and dial that in but I’m happy with where I’m at right now.

That’s a juicy looking beer and a fruity looking hops bill.

All my suggestions for the OP have been covered. Different hops, a LOT more wheat or oats, chill to 170 for WP hops, load up on DH, drop the secondary and closed transfer.

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Thanks for all the responses and yes, that does look like a SWEET looking NEIPA.

This makes sense. My color always looks good right out of the primary, but since I’m conditioning for 3+ weeks, I lose the color do to oxidation. I just looked at my all grain carboy and it’s almost fully amber in color (brewed exactly 1 month ago).
So what I gather is no hops during the boil, most at the hop stand @~170 degrees.
Just do the primary for 7-10 days and do extra dry hopping in the primary.
I’ll do the Citra next batch. Citra is a go to favorite.
When the yeast settles down, transfer right to the keg and pressurize with CO2.
Drink ASAP!!!
I have an extra CO2 tank just to keep my spare kegs pressurized and ready for when space opens in the tap-fridge. Gotta keep the rotation going….
Funny thing is a few months ago I watched a YouTube video from Clawhammer where the guy did an NEIPA and it looked like he went right from the primary to Keg, and then tapped it right away.
I remember thinking did he skip the secondary, or just leave that part out of the video.

No reason to secondary most beers. I actually DH in the keg on most of my beers. If it’s a massive amount I’ll do the first round in the fermenter, second round in the keg with either a hop filter or paint strainer bag.

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When they are alluding to CO2 or closed transfer, this thread reviews that : Transfer to keg under CO2 pressure - #3 by dannyboy58

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You will still want your bittering and flavoring additions. 60min and 20/15 min.

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My IPAs only get bittering and late (5 mins or less) additions during the boil, exception being the occassional first wort hops. So the flavor (15-20 min) are optional in IPAs in my opinion. Most of the hops are whirlpool and DH. I don’t target the NEIPA though.

As @dannyboy58 said, there is almost no reason to secondary any beer unless adding fruit additions etc. With the New Englands, I add first wort hops (rather than a “bittering” addition) to get around 25-30 IBU’s and then a huge whirlpool addition at 170 degrees for 30 minutes. First dry hop goes in primary no later than 48 hours into fermentation and second dry hop right in the keg as mentioned above. Typically, I like to go about 15-18 days from grain to glass and I find that my NEIPA’s start drinking very well about 2 weeks after carbonation!

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Damn, I’d really like to be drinking your iterations of IPA!!!
Sneezles61

I’d love to get a swap going on here but I don’t want to lead the charge, only participate. I remember when @gregscsu arranged one years ago and I never received my package from sender.

To stay on topic @BrianS I’d also recommend buying hops in bulk if you’re going to be brewing NEIPA’s. My 5 gallon batches were using 13-16oz per batch and now I’ve jumped to 10 gallon batches

Good info here. Just placed an NB order for another attempt at my NEIPA.
Got me thinking about my oxidation problem.
Do you think this is occurring because I’m not doing a closed CO2 transfer, or because I leave them in the glass carboy for over 3 weeks? Or both…
I know I’m exposed to air during the transfer, but only for 5 minutes and I thought because I have the siphon tube sit at the bottom of the carboy (secondary) it pushes all the air out the top, except for what may be left in the last inch or so.
I was under the impression that the glass carboy with the rubber stopper and airlock was air tight.

I recall two guys at the LHB shop have a debate about glass vs. plastic carboys. One guy kept saying the plastic is porous and will allow air in, where the glass will not.
Did I waste my money stocking up on glass carboys?
In the late fall I like to stock pile my basement with carboys to last me through the winter when it’s too cold to brew outside.

A lot of good questions. Re glass vs plastic, makes no difference in this discussion, plastic would be a problem with bulk aging.

It’s good that you don’t bottle these, because NEIPAs are notoriously prone to oxidation with bottling…with very careful kegging and transfer technique and experience you could pull it off, but moving toward closed transfers is your best bet for NEIPAs.

I don’t think the 3 week thing is huge but quicker turnaround with kegging is possible and optimal.

I had some of my bottled versions 4-5 years ago turn purple !!

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