I reviewed past posts but didn’t find much to address my question. That is, I’d like to make an APA with more body but similar passionfruit taste as Kona Brewing’s Big Wave Golden Ale. My approach is to use the hop stand technique for a single infusion five gallon batch. I’m using this approach to produce the passionfruit flavor, give appropriate bittering to the APA style, and to improve the odds that the flavor and aroma don’t dissipate over time. I’ve read (and, yes, I know there are wide-rainging opinions on this) that a 30 min hop stand will produce the equivalent of a 10 minute boil in terms of bittering. I plan to do a small (0.3 oz) 60 min addition of Centennial, then a 30 min hop stand using 0.5 oz each of Hallertau Blanc, Galaxy, Citra and Cascade.
I’m not a fan of bitter beers, so I’d like to keep the bitterness ratio at about 0.7 - 0.8 (OG calculated to about 1.045, 35 IBUs, and bitterness ratio of 0.74). Calculations based on Beersmith software and reducing bitterness produced by 10% since I use nylon bags to contain the hops.
This is my first experiment with hop standing, so I’m not sure if I’m way off with my assumptions and would appreciate feedback on where I may have gone of track. In particular, I’m looking for help on the utility of hopstanding for flavor production and stability of flavor/aroma as well as appropriateness for this beer, given what I’m trying to do.
IMO IBU’s are really only useful in calculating bitterness from bittering or other boil hops.
I am planning on doing an APA at some point soon, and I think your plan will work great if you are looking for a gentler bitterness (which I also would). You also may want to consider the use of a hopshot as opposed to bittering hops at 60 minutes. I think you will get a lot of passionfruit from the Galaxy and Citra, and the Hallertau will hopefully give you some floral along with those.
One other question: what yeast? I am of the opinion that the right kind and right amount (more than you think) esters are as important than hops in hop-forward beers. US-05 if fermented real low (60-62) will give you a slight stone fruit ester that should link up well with your hops.
I’ve only hopstanded a couple of beers so I can’t really speak too much about their effects. They did have a more pronounced hop flavor early but it quickly faded.
I have never had the beer you mention you are trying to mimick but I do know I got a pretty decent passion fruit flavor from using mosaic hops and an english ale yeast (WLP013). I believe any English ale yeast would be estery enough to do the trick. In my experience the yeast is as important in generating that passion fruit flavor (maybe more?) as are the hops.
I believe if you cool the wort to below 180F before you add the hops, any bitterness added should be negligible. In my experience, hopstanding adds a good amount of flavor and aroma. I would also consider a dry hop to bring out the aroma a little more. Are those the hops used for Big Wave? The beer does have a nice tropical flavor. If you go with it, please post back the results.
In reply, yes, I thought of doing the hopstand at lower temps to avoid the added bittering, but then decided to just do it after the boil and get bitterness along with the flavor. And I am thinking of doing some dry hopping in addition. Kona brewing lists Galaxy and Citra as their hops.
I’m fermenting with WY1272 (American Ale II) since it’s an APA, but maybe will do with an English ale yeast in the future – never really made the connection of yeast and passionfruit flavor, but I suppose with more esters it’s likely. I guess I’ll see what happens with the 1272 first, then maybe do a batch with English yeast.
As a side note, I just looked at the Kona website again and found that the bitterness was listed at 21 IBU, so maybe I’m going to produce too much bitterness – may be an argument for hop standing at cooler temps. On the other hand, they may be approaching their beer with the blonde ale model rather than the APA model I’m using since the bitterness ratio for a blonde ale is much lower than an APA. My malt formulation is 87% 2 row pale malt, 8% Caramel (40L), and 5% carapils. My hope was to produce something with a bit more body and some “silkiness”.
2-3 weeks once fully carbed in the bottle is about all I get from hopstands. Then it’s mostly just bitter.
I’m considering reducing the bittering hops dramatically, using a 15/20 min flavor addition, 5min/FO addition, and a whirlpool to increase IBU. I’m hoping I might get a beer with fantastic hop flavor and aroma that fades into a decent hoppy pale ale.
Wondering the same thing. I hop stand all my IPA’s and APA’s with good result and don’t notice a tremendous amount of fade in the few months I’ve got kegs around.
Also on the original question I’d say your plan is solid for a APA that goes towards hop flavor over bitterness. Agree with Pietro that any hopstand IBU calculation really doesn’t seem to hold up. Perhaps it does in measured IBU’s but I’ve yet to over bitter a beer due to a hopstand addition and I’ve done some pretty large hopstand additions at flame out. Perhaps someone has come across a good ‘one size fits all’ guide for hop stand guidance but I just had to play around and figure out what worked for me. Seems like there are too many factors like batch size, rate the temp of wort drops after flame out, rate the beer is cooled (immersion vs. counterflow) and a bunch of stuff I’m probably missing to give guidance that is relevant to someone else’s setup.
[quote=“porkchop”]2-3 weeks once fully carbed in the bottle is about all I get from hopstands. Then it’s mostly just bitter.
I’m considering reducing the bittering hops dramatically, using a 15/20 min flavor addition, 5min/FO addition, and a whirlpool to increase IBU. I’m hoping I might get a beer with fantastic hop flavor and aroma that fades into a decent hoppy pale ale.[/quote]
Our last 3 IIPAs we have done a bittering addition (usually either columbus or extract) to 50-60 IBU’s, then gotten the rest of the measured IBUs from massive (like 8-12oz/5 gallon) 30 minute hopstand at 180* additions.
It has really been working well for big hop flavor, particularly when using high AA late hops like Citra, Simcoe, or Mosaic.
Bittering hops make beer bitter. Kimmich from Alchemist swears that you should not boil hops if you want to actually taste them.
OK, I know this is an issue that people disagree on, but I’m starting to think that maybe I should increase my charge of bittering hops to make sure I get adequate bitterness since it’s possible that the hop stand hops may not give me enough bitterness, but plenty of flavor/aroma, at least for the first few weeks in the bottle. So, rather than the 11 IBUs I now have planned in the 0.3 oz of Centennial, I may increase it to get 20 IBUs and see if I pick up enough bitterness from the hop stand hops… I’m also, as stated earlier, considering some dry hops, maybe an ounce or two for the more volatile hops components.
Aw, I see you’d like some silkiness too! I would cut back on the caramel, in fact take it right out, use oats in place of the caramel. To me it really smoothes it out. The orange color doesn’t make or break my taste buds on hoped up brews. I’ve messed with mosaic hops and find them in a category by them selves in an APA style. Hopping at flame out is the way I do that now, 180, throw in what you designed, let it sit fer 20 minutes, or long enough to enjoy a pint then GIT R DUN! I think Founders brewery has a brew with a SMASH style of simpson golden promise and mosaic, absolutely wonderful of a brew!
I am planning a SMaSH APA currently. My first attempt at a SMaSH brew and only one of my few recipes I am attempting to make up myself (single malt, single hop, can’t be too difficult). Going to use all citra hops. Bittering to about 35 IBU also and will do a whirlpool hopstand at under 180 degrees for 15 mins. I am going to try it and see how it goes, then I may dry hop in my keg if it doesn’t have enough hop aroma/flavor for me.
Only other brew I’ve done a hopstand was the HT clone from the site here, and it seemed to work wonderfully. Still has a great hop flavor and aroma, but it does have dry hops in the keg with it, so YMMV.
Looking at your post again, most of our stats for this beer are almost the same. Mine is 1.048 OG, 36.1 IBU, 0.75 ratio. I say go for it and post back with your results!
After lots of batches of pale ales (and some IPA’s) that is where I eventually ended up; some Magnum (or other high AA hop) at 60 minutes where I target ~20% low on what I want for final IBU’s, then lots of whirlpool hops and dry hop.
[quote=“Antwerp”]OK, I know this is an issue that people disagree on, but I’m starting to think that maybe I should increase my charge of bittering hops to make sure I get adequate bitterness since it’s possible that the hop stand hops may not give me enough bitterness, but plenty of flavor/aroma, at least for the first few weeks in the bottle. So, rather than the 11 IBUs I now have planned in the 0.3 oz of Centennial, I may increase it to get 20 IBUs and see if I pick up enough bitterness from the hop stand hops… I’m also, as stated earlier, considering some dry hops, maybe an ounce or two for the more volatile hops components.
I mean it really depends on what you like. Think of Stone IPA vs. Two Hearted. The former has a much more aggressive bitterness, which in my opinion, overwhelms the hop flavor. Two hearted has enough bitterness to where it isn’t sweet and stays really drinkable, but is not like biting into an orange rind.
That said, 20 IBU from the bittering hops sounds appropriate for an APA where 11 sounds a little light, even for a 1.045 beer.
"I mean it really depends on what you like. Think of Stone IPA vs. Two Hearted. The former has a much more aggressive bitterness, which in my opinion, overwhelms the hop flavor. Two hearted has enough bitterness to where it isn’t sweet and stays really drinkable, but is not like biting into an orange rind.
That said, 20 IBU from the bittering hops sounds appropriate for an APA where 11 sounds a little light, even for a 1.045 beer."
Thanks Pietro, I just didn’t know if 11 IBUs (or at least the relative degree of bitterness) would be sufficient bittering even if I was aiming for more flavor and aroma than bitterness. For now, I’m just trying to get in the ballpark so I don’t end up with a batch which I wouldn’t know where to go to improve it. I do want enough bitterness for my “hop head” friends, but enough flavor for me. I’m a bit out of my league since most of my beers are Belgians or English Ales and this will only be my second APA in forty batches since I started brewing.
IBU’s are a tool to understand a beer’s flavor, but are extremely limited in my mind.
Many approximate hop stand additions by inputting them as a 20 minute addition into brewing software or their hand-written calculation (don’t laugh, I know some serious OCD brewers who calculate everything with a sharp pencil and their weird John-Nash brains).
There is a fine line between where hop flavor ends and hop bitterness begins, but as I suggested, I think your 0.75 BU:GU ratio is plenty high for an APA, and getting half of those IBUs from a bittering charge should produce a solid beer with ‘enough’ bitterness and great hop flavor from the hopstand. Definitely incorporate a dry hop though, and try to coax out just a few esters out of whatever yeast you are using to help support the hop aroma.
I know there’s a lot of how to’s and how not to’s out there. Thats where YOU become the brewer in study…. You need to work off all thats offered for a style, then to TAKE notes as you brew, very thorough. When its done then taste and try to separate whats good or not wanted…. I think the kits you can buy will get close, but how you brew will help you get to what you want…. KEEP BREWING… someday you will be able to hang your hat on a way that will make your brew great!! :cheers: Sneezles61