I personally still treat 644 like a wild yeast. Just becuase it isn’t brett doesn’t mean it isn’t brett-like.
After hearing that firestone walker treats saison yeast like wild yeast, it’s making more sense to me to think that way.
From my understanding, Munich malt isn’t as fermentable as Pilsner/2 row. Here’s an excerpt from Brau Kaiser:
grain bill composition (base malt): mashes rich in enzymes, i.e. high diastatic power, (Pilsner malt, Pale malt) will produce more fermentable worts since they contain a lager amount of beta-amylase and limit dextrinase which can produce more maltose than mashes with lower diastatic power (Munich malt or large amounts of unmalted grains) assuming the same saccharification rest temperature.
Sure crystal or roast malts would provide more non-fermentables but I’m not sure I would want to go there… But now that I’m thinking about that…[/quote]
I understand all this, but I don’t honestly think Kai was thinking of brett or brett-like yeasts when he wrote this. These yeasts can tear through maltose and maltriose IIRC where most sacc yeasts cannot.
[quote=“Wahoo”]I personally still treat 644 like a wild yeast. Just becuase it isn’t brett doesn’t mean it isn’t brett-like.
After hearing that firestone walker treats saison yeast like wild yeast, it’s making more sense to me to think that way.[/quote]
Absolutely, a saison strain can ruin a batch just as well as a wild yeast or bacteria infection can. It won’t hyper-attenuate like a real brett in secondary, but I do see similar attenuation between 644 and saison yeast. I personally think that yeast cross-contamination is much more common than people think, but it isn’t noticed unless the characteristics of the yeast really clash.
But I think some flaked oats in a grist for 644 is a good idea to keep it from being too thin, especially in a hoppy beer. I’ll be trying out golden naked oats in my next batch with it, haven’t used them yet but I’m hoping they’ll do the same thing.
So I’m going to try a pils/flaked oats 100% brett pale ale this weekend, with a large late addition of Motueka and Nelson Sauvin. Either ECY dirty dozen or naardenensis. I’ll probably give it a good 4 weeks in primary, then dry hop for another week in primary. Hopefully the gravity will drop below 1.010 within that time frame. Then start the countdown for when the hop aroma and flavor start to fade.
Subscribing to this thread. Keep us posted.
So you’re going with an actual Brett fermentation. Man I’m still a little chicken to do that. Let us know how it turns out. I hopefully will get my 644 brew in within the next couple weeks but we’ll see…
Check out the Brewing Network podcasts where they have Chad Yakobsen (founder of Crooked Stave who did his doctoral thesis on Brett) on the shows. Brett is just another yeast, but genetically, it is light years more complex than sacc. Also, the easier it is for Brett to work (ie in a primary ferment), the less ‘funk’ (hate that descriptor) it spits out.
644 will make a killer beer though. Have one 750ml of my saison made with it left, just trying to figure out who to share it with…or to drink it alone in my broom closet.
Yup, brettanomyces is just another yeast. With a tremendous amount of variability between species, let alone strains. But star-san kills it. :cheers:
So you treat it like any other yeast as far as cleaning and sanitizing? No worries about isolating equipment?
I have a saison w/brett ready to keg, but it’s my first time using it.
You’ll find widely varying opinions on this, but it is a yeast, and will be killed by any other treatment that kills yeast. I share everything between sacch and brett without any carryover. However, I do take the time to do a long oxy soak in my buckets. We use star-san to kill wild bacteria and yeast. And brettanomyces is… Wild yeast. Star-San will kill it.
The one thing to keep in mind, brett can form a biofilm which is next to impossible to remove. If your tolerance to risk is low, keep equipment separated. Otherwise, give it a good cleaning and you won’t have an issue.
Now throw bacteria into the mix, and it’s best to keep plastics separated. That’s a whole 'nother issue though.
Thanks porkchop, I was mainly concerned with dedicating a keg for “wild” yeasts.
I do have a strict cleaning and sanitizing regiment, so it should be good.
Side note, kegged it today, went from 1.044 to 0.998, tasted great. Saved some yeast for future brews.
Love those low-gravity beers that end up 6%+ ABV! Mine from this past weekend came in at 1.061, which should come in at least 8%. Gotta be careful with these…
I know you kegged it, but there’s something incredible that happens when you bottle a brett saison at 3.5 and higher volumes in heavy glass bottles. I don’t know if it’s the pressure in the bottle or aromatics released by the higher carbonation, but this is one style that really benefits from the bottle. Maybe package a few in glass with some extra priming sugar?
That’s interesting, I was debating whether to bottle or keg. It’s been a while since I’ve bottled.
I do have some champagne bottles but I loaned my brother-in-law my bench capper. He’s about 5 hrs north.
I have a strong ale that’s been sitting on Roselare for over a year, that one will be bottled.
@porkchop @pietro. Any update on this? Working on a recipe now for hopefully Sunday. Bumped my crystal malt to 8.5% (combo of carawheat and C40) to help with the finished body.
Checked mine last weekend, 1.051 to 1.004 in 12 days with ECY dirty dozen. Racked it to secondary, and I expect it to drop a little more over the next couple of weeks, maybe down to 1.000. I’m going to dry hop it for a good 14 days weekend after next, and hopefully bottle over the holidays.
The aroma from primary was incredible - complete tropical fruit bomb!
Could I suggest some flaked oats or rye? They really work wonders in a beer that finishes low like it probably will with 644.
Not sure if I have any flaked oats laying around. Guess I’ll have to pick up some quick oats tomorrow.
Trust me, if you add flakes oats to your beer, you can justify having it for breakfast.
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You have a suggestion for % of oats to use?
