I am curious how you all account for a whirlpool addition when trying to clone a commercial recipe. I have noticed that the guys on the BN usually bump the boil up to 90min to make that whirlpool addition at the 15 min. mark. How is this done from a 60 min. boil recipe? Would I simply do a 90, 45, and 15 and then just adjust the bittering points to hit the target IBU’s??? Thanks in advance for any discourse on this matter.
Been thinking about the same thing. It recently came up when I wanted to do something close to Mission Street Pale Ale. Firestone walker throws a bunch of hops in late and due to the time the whirlpool takes they get some amount of utilization (they are measuring the IBUs of the end beer). Rather the move the additions up in time I let the flame out hops steep for 45 minutes in the hot wort.
I figured it was something like a whirlpool and got at what Kristen England was talking about. viewtopic.php?f=28&t=76188 Beer is only 3 weeks old and I don’t have it on tap yet but I’m optimistic given the sample I quick carbonated (using a Carbonator).
At some point I’ll try moving the hops up in the boil to see how the methods compare but I’m pretty pleased with the amount of hop aroma and flavor I got out of my batch using a hop stand. Yesterday I did another Pale and rather than just let the hops steep I stirred occasionally and only left it for 30 minutes so I’ll be able to compare that subtle variation.
On a couple of the brews Tasty said that he would just put the hops in at flame out and let the kettle sit hot for equivalent amount of time as the whirlpool (I believe he did this for the re brew of the Firestone Walker DBA). Personally, I usually throw the hops in at the 10 or 15 minute mark then let sit for 15 or 20 hot after flame out. You will still get isomerization at temps above 170 degrees.
I have heard that strategy before, but I have a question about it. Will you also get more bitterness from the earlier additions…throwing off the total IBU target level?
At least according to Beersmith, the difference between 60, 75, 90 minutes is pretty marginal, just a few IBU’s. Don’t personally know how true that is. I use hop bags (usually a big grain bag) so I will usually pull those out and add my late additions in a separate bag. I guess one could use IBUs caluculations based on time including the hop stand. So if I am doing a 60 minute boil with a 15 minute hop stand, then I should calculate the IBU’s of my first hop addition at 75 minutes and make adjustments on how much hops I use. I am going to see JZ at Heretic pint night thing tomorrow, if I get a chance I will ask him about that. I am brewing a clone of is commercial Evil Twin which gets most of the IBU’s from late additions, so it would be good to know.
Given JZ’s comments on a recent Brew Strong I’m not sure he is a big fan of ‘whirlpool hops’ since he dismissed them as adding little value and that he was having to adjust the Evil Twin recipe to retain the hop profile he wanted since it took so long to cool a commercial sized batch. It confused me since those comments fly counter to what Mike McDole has been doing and digging in to. It also doesn’t quite jibe with Firestone Walker’s beers like their Mission Street Pale and other beers since they make heavy use of whirlpool hops to get their hop character. Probably comes down to there are multiple ways to build hop character, all with their pro’s and cons.
Fairly certain you are going to get utilization out of a long whirlpool. The discussion with Firestone Walker on CYBI highlighted this for me, Matt Brynildson walked through the hops for Firestone walker and pointed out that how it only calculates out to ~18 IBU but due to the utilization they are getting (from all hop additions) during the whirlpool they are measuring ~30 IBU in the end beer. This matches my experience where I brewed the recipe he have and did a 45 minute ‘hop stand’ the beer only calculates out to 18 IBU but while I can’t measure IBU’s I can be fairly confident in saying the end beer was closer to what Firestone Walker is getting.
Adding hops via a hop bag and pulling them at the end would work but I’d think you’d still want to account for getting some IBU’s from the whirlpool hops (though you’ll just have to guess how much). I’ve just started playing with this but what I’ve done is shoot low for calculated IBU’s knowing that I’ll get some IBU’s from the late additions and flameout/whirlpool hops.
From my limited experience and what I’ve read from others there is a noticeable difference in hops added in to the point vs. whirlpool vs. dry hop. I figured that the only way I was going to figure out what that difference is would be to try them all out. :cheers:
Thank you all for the great dialogue. I feel like we actually discussed something very relevant and got something accomplished. You are probably right about the hops stand; however, if you are trying to clone a recipe and really hit numbers as close as possible, it is too difficult to calculate on that stand. If you are just brewing for good tasting beers and don’t have to report ibu’s on a score sheet, then you would just find the right process and repeat it to reproduce that exact same beer. Anyone else have some contributions to calculating and simulating whirlpool additions?
My house stout is made with a bittering addition and a hopstand only (two ounce per fermenter), and the hopstand adds flavor and aroma with some bitterness (wort cooled to 195F before adding hops, ~90-minute stand, insulated kettle).
Brew before last, I was tight on time and didn’t want to let it sit, so I added the hops at the 5-minute mark instead and did a regular chill - beer had similar flavor/aroma/bitter to the hopstand version. Brewed it again last Sunday, and now I have a pump, so I did a 30-minute whirlpool with no initial chill, temp dropped to 175F at the end, and the wort going into the fermenters was also similar to the hopstand version.
So I’m comfortable with estimating the whirlpool’s IBUs as equal to a 5-min addition, at least for Cascade, which is high in cohumulone, so take that into account if trying this with a milder hop.
I don’t understand how a 15 minute addition could be equivalent to whirlpool hops since whirlpool hops aren’t boiled. Makes no sense to me. I would just let them sit longer before chilling.
McDole did say that for the IBU calculation he’d count on the ‘whirlpool’ hop’s bitterness contribution like a 15 minute addition. He said no hard science went in to that but it seemed to work out about right from how the beers were coming out. Also he puts all his ‘normal’ kettle hops in a bag and just pull the bag at flame out so he didn’t have to account for any additional IBU’s they may contribute as part of a whirlpool/hop stand.
Shade - thanks for info, that is one of the variations I want to try, adding those late hops with a few minutes left. I’m glad to add the extra time to my brew day if I’m really happy with the results and can’t get that flavor any other way but I’d be happy to save the time if I can’t tell the difference in the end beer.
If you want to duplicate a whirlpool addition just add the hops at flame-out and let stand for the amount of time of the addition. This is commonly called a hop-stand. The WP duration that the pro guys talk about is not the actual time that they WP…usually you WP for about 5min and then stand for another 30(or whatever…I’ve heard some brewers go up to 90) to let the solids coalesce in the center of the vessel. Then you KO.
If you watch the temps of the wort in the kettle (WP vessels go even lower due to not being to temp) it drops to the mid 190s or lower…this is similar to FW hopping. you get some great aromatics and flavors but the temp is just low enough that the isomerizeration you get produces IBUs that are smooth and not really noticeable in the overall scheme.
This is the beauty of the WP hop-stand. Add your hops…stir in a WP for about 5min and let stand for the WP addition time, then KO and you’ll pretty much get what they get.
I assume you would want to put the lid on as much as possible to keep temps up while doing a hop stand???
You could throw the lid on…but as long as it stays above 180F the wort stays pretty much sterile.
I have, keeps the temp up a bit but mostly to keep bugs and the like out of my wort.
But you’re just estimating IBU anyway, right? For that matter, so is the commercial brewer, usually.
But you’re just estimating IBU anyway, right? For that matter, so is the commercial brewer, usually.[/quote]
Bigger craft breweries certainly measure IBU’s. I don’t think a calculation for IBU contribution during whirlpool would really be possible since there are so many variables that’d effect it (rate of whirlpool, temperature profile of whirl pool, vessel size, vessel geometry, etc.) Firestone Walker knows what IBU’s they are ending up with vs. what would be calculated. I’m just working off trial and error, best part is I get to drink all my trial and errors. :cheers:
Think it is pretty critical to keep a lid on. The hop aroma you smell with the lid off is obviously not making into the beer… Those beautiful hop constituents will evaporate. Lifting the lid after a hop steep/stand is one of the best experiences a hophead can get.
Have done hop stands before but only for 15m and with other late additions. I plan to do a long hop stand without other additions on the next IIPA. It will be something like 15lbs pale, 2oz FWH, and 10oz hopstand for 60m. I really like the simplicity of this concept. I always thought the constant hop additions thing to be a bit gimmicky.
