Thanks, I am working with Kai’s spreadsheet now and just did a test batch to kind of see what I would have to add to get water I needed. I feel a lot better about this from help and crunching numbers. My freaking out is due to the fact that I am over worked and kind of got nervous I wouldn’t understand this and that kind of ticked me off because I love brewing. But, if it takes years then it takes years. Since I moved I haven’t brewed in like 5 months. Here is figures I got from spreadsheet and still trying to get Brun water to work for me.
I put as a basic pale ale with 14lbs of grains and 10gallons of water. Here is what I got:
Cal 124
Mag 2
Sod 26
Sulfite 295
Chloride 2
Bicar 103
Alka 84
est ph 5.59
That is with 20grams of Gypsum and 2mls lactic acid. From looking at it the Magnesium looks low, sulfite and bicarb looks high. Any suggestions?
[quote=“vanwolfhausen”]Thanks, I am working with Kai’s spreadsheet now and just did a test batch to kind of see what I would have to add to get water I needed. I feel a lot better about this from help and crunching numbers. My freaking out is due to the fact that I am over worked and kind of got nervous I wouldn’t understand this and that kind of ticked me off because I love brewing. But, if it takes years then it takes years. Since I moved I haven’t brewed in like 5 months. Here is figures I got from spreadsheet and still trying to get Brun water to work for me.
I put as a basic pale ale with 14lbs of grains and 10gallons of water. Here is what I got:
Cal 124
Mag 2
Sod 26
Sulfite 295
Chloride 2
Bicar 103
Alka 84
est ph 5.59
That is with 20grams of Gypsum and 2mls lactic acid. From looking at it the Magnesium looks low, sulfite and bicarb looks high. Any suggestions?[/quote]
I would be glad to throw in one view on it. Your heading the right direction but the sulfate is way too high because of the sole addition of Gypsum. If I look at brunwater and split the water into two assuming you are batch sparging for now this gives me a mash ratio of 1.43 which is normal for just about everybody depending on of course and then you sparge with the other 5 lets say.
As-is without additions your mash PH would hover around 6.0 and you will have 0 calcium which are your two major concerns, the flavor ions are balanced but nonexistent so lets say nil-nil for now, but this will change with additions so just for continuity I will keep the flavor ions balanced throughout the demonstration. So if you add 2.5gram of gypsum and 2.2 gram calcium chloride to the mash along with 2ml of lactic 88% you create an optimal room temp mash PH reading of 5.6 and your resulting profile of the changed minerals becomes this:
Ca: 67ppm
Mg: 2ppm
Na: 26ppm
SO4: 74ppm
CL: 57ppm
HCO3: 27ppm
ALk: 22ppm
SO4:CL ratio is balanced at 1.3
For the sparge 5 gallons you would like to do something like the following also too then.
Add the same 2.5gram of gypsum and 2.2 gram of calcium chloride to create the same calcium amount flowing through to the kettle as much from the mash is bound and the SO4:CL ratio stays the same. Then add 2.2 ml lactic 88% to reduce the existing alkalinity of 85 down to 19 reducing the sparge water PH to approximately 5.7
This is the way I would do it, Now YRMV and this is where personal choice becomes a factor as myself I always use phosphoric where others use lactic etc…And you may wish a more bitter or malty flavor ion profile when executed, so you would just tweak the gypsum up some for bitter and calcium chloride for malty side.
Edit* Say dont worry about Mg you dont need much at all and it is desirable to keep it low.
:cheers:
Awesome. Is there a difference with Kai spreadsheet and Brun? Kai’s is really helping me understand things. Just a few questions and I will figure the rest out on my own:
Is there a reason for adding the Gypsum and Calcium to the mash and sparge as opposed to adding all to the mash?
The main additives I will need for my water are Gypsum, Calcium and Lactic Acid correct?
For different styles I will adjust according to better suite the style but, is there a good site that shows good ranges for each style?
Didn’t want to get into this now due to work expansion, just moved and overall stress but, I am glad to get into it now. Thanks for the patience and sorry for being a nudge with this crap.
[quote=“vanwolfhausen”]Awesome. Is there a difference with Kai spreadsheet and Brun?
They are both working on the same principles, just slightly different feel between em, just plug these numbers into Kai’s they should be awful close.
Kai’s is really helping me understand things. Just a few questions and I will figure the rest out on my own:
Is there a reason for adding the Gypsum and Calcium to the mash and sparge as opposed to adding all to the mash?
Kai or Martin would be better suited to answer this directly but in my understanding, Yes, you “could” potentially suppress the mash PH too far <5.1 during the long times used in mashing and in this action more of the calcium becomes bound as a byproduct. This is where YRMV as many reserve sparge minerals and add directly to the kettle I find this method quoted to be the easiest for me.
The main additives I will need for my water are Gypsum, Calcium and Lactic Acid correct?
Yes, Gypsum and lactic acid OR Phosphoric(had to get it in, LOL) And calcium can come from chalk, lime or calcium chloride. But you want to use calcium chloride as it doesnt add alkalinity just chloride and calcium whereas the other two add alkalinity and calcium and chalk is a bad contributor to calcium also as it doesnt break down in water without CO2 as proven by Kai, others.
For different styles I will adjust according to better suite the style but, is there a good site that shows good ranges for each style?
I am not sure about guideline I’m sure there is look to Martins stuff cant recall offhand many beers kind of show you when drinking commercial types IPA-a bitter profile, Scotch 60-malty etc…
Didn’t want to get into this now due to work expansion, just moved and overall stress but, I am glad to get into it now. Thanks for the patience and sorry for being a nudge with this crap.[/quote]
Have a great one, I’m glad you took a moment to let the basics soak in tonight, your there my friend. It doesn’t get much easier than this.
vanwolfhausen, fwiw, it seems daunting, but in actuality it only adds a couple of extra steps to brew day:
-taking a pH reading
-adding some powder and stirring it in
The chemistry behind it can seem very slippery, but I’d argue that you can get quite far just by plugging your numbers into a spreadsheet and letting that tell you what you need to add. I happen to find the chemistry pretty interesting, so I read about it, but I don’t think it’s really necessary to nail your water profile and make great beer.
Regarding which spreadsheet to use, I found bru’n water a little complex and daunting, so I use Palmer’s. Now that I have greater understanding of everything, I’m gonna revisit Bru’n water, as it gets a lot of praise around here.
Whatever route you go, once you start adjusting your water, the extra steps will be nothing more than background noise within a couple brews. Also, I’d recommend weighing out any water additions the night before (as well as hops, if you don’t already).
By the way, it looks like his chloride : sulfate is good to go…is it possible that adding gypsum without adding chloride will lead to enhanced bitterness?
[edit]Also, re separate mash and sparge additions, isn’t that at least partly to acidify sparge water, preventing the pH from going to high during sparging, leading to tannin extraction?
I felt the same way when I started looking at water treatment. Palmer’s spreadsheet just felt simpler and more intuitive to me. That got me comfortable with some basics and was fine for a while, but I believe the limitation of Palmer’s calculations is that they tend to fall apart for big adjustments and especially for dark beers, if I remember correctly.
When I went back and revisited Bru’n Water a while later, it didn’t look nearly so scary or confusing, and I found some of its unique features and notes very helpful.
Either one is definitely better than nothing, and as long as one is aware of the limitations of Palmer’s sheet, I think it can get you a long way.
