Fermcap?

I’m polling the audience for pros and cons. Right now I love it and it doesn’t seem to have any ill effects.

I used to use it a lot. Then I found out that it’s really supposed to be filtered out. I doubt there’s too much worry at the rate we homebrewers use it, but I’d rather not pile another health issue onto what I’m already dealing with. I still use it, but only rarely.

Do you remember what the health concern would have been?

Do you remember what the health concern would have been?[/quote]

Kidney and/or liver blockage.

Do you remember what the health concern would have been?[/quote]

Kidney and/or liver blockage.[/quote]

Oof. Yeah, we don’t need more of that. My GF has me drinking raw cranberry juice everyday.

Do you remember what the health concern would have been?[/quote]

Kidney and/or liver blockage.[/quote]

Ouch I’ve been fat dumb and happy using the crap out of this stuff for a while. I try to max out my equipment. 12 gal post boil yield in a keggle. And putting 6 gal in a 6.5 gal fermenter. Between my bk, fermenters, (and to a lesser extent because I use dry yeast a lot and reuse liquid) starters, I have been using a vial for every 6 batches (12gal). And never even realized there were any health concerns. ill definitely have to look into this further. I figured they sell for beer it must be fine to consume.
I could pretty easily get by without it, use blow off tubing, watch the bk closer, but it has made certainty things easier. Sorry for spelling or Grammer I’m getting used to tablet typing and it’s late. And I just finished a pint of dipa

I’ve used this product for years, and it works really well to knock down foam in the BK as well as the fermenter.

However, it’s certainly not necessary, and if it does indeed pose health risks, I’d like to know about it!

Denny, can you share your source?

Word around the shop is it drops out of suspension naturally.

I use a few drops pre-boil and BAM - no boil overs.

[quote=“El Capitan”]I’ve used this product for years, and it works really well to knock down foam in the BK as well as the fermenter.

However, it’s certainly not necessary, and if it does indeed pose health risks, I’d like to know about it!

Denny, can you share your source?[/quote]

It was discussed on the probrewer forum. I’ll try to find it and post a link.

Here’s one discussion…

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/50162/50 ... 1304008514

The link to the warning from Brewers Supply on Probrewer is dead now…I’ll see what else I cafind.

Here’s the FDA sheet on the active ingredient:

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/c ... fr=173.340 http://www.grokfood.com/regulations/173.340.htm

In doing some medical side research on this, the active ingredient is the same as what’s in: Simethicone (Gas-X, Alka-Seltzer Gas Relief, Mylanta, Mylicon, Maalox).

Per the sources we use, states it has zero bioavailability, and is eliminated in stool.

I did a review of about 120 articles in the medical literature about it, and can’t find anything that comments on organ toxicity. The only articles of note were case reports (1 to maybe 5 people) in a doctor’s career experience having reactions to the implants containing PDMS used in dental and head and neck surgeries.

I can’t speak to the ppm of the meds. Also can’t say that there’s not compounds in the medication that make it less toxic, but I didn’t see any data to support that.

Interesting experiment: Would gas-x be useful as a defoaming agent?

Also, unfortunately necessary disclaimer, this isn’t being offered as medical advice.

Hope that’s helpful.

I use it in the boil of every beer I brew. I am generally bringing 3.5-4 gallons to a boil in a 5 gallon kettle with the lid on, so it’s good boilover insurance. I’ve heard of some people using it when boiling pasta to prevent boilovers there as well.

While the FDA has set a limit on the concentration of PDMS when used as a food additive, it is actually used at much higher doses as a medication (simethicone, the active ingredient in Gas-X, Mylicon infant drops, etc). At a concentration of 10ppm, you’d need to drink well over 20 pints before you even hit the equivalent of the max recommended daily dose for something like Mylanta.

Even if you accidentally go way overboard, there is zero evidence that this is toxic when taken orally. There is no reports in the medical literature regarding toxicity or overdosage from simethicone. Your GI system just can’t absorb it. Any toxicity information comes from other industrial or surgical-type exposures such as inhalation of the dry particles, implantation in the skin, or injection. As a pharmacist, I feel that a lot of the concerns over this product are overstated and are based on extrapolations that just don’t seem to hold much water to me.

Thanks for the info, guys. It kind of confirms my feelings…there’s likely to be no issue using it, but if I can limit its use, so much the better. I’d like to now your feelings about the following quote from the Probrewer forum…admittedly not from a medical pro.

“Brewers should not use silicone-containing antifoam for unfiltered beers. The FDA allows active silicone to be used up to 10 parts-per-million (ppm) but stipulates that the silicone must be removed prior to packaging by either filtration or centrifugation. In the case of unfiltered beers, use a food grade, non-silicone antifoam. We sell a food grade, canola oil based antifoam that works well for this purpose and has an added benefit of being yeast-friendly at the same time. Look for my article on antifoams in the brewery in the July/August issue of The New Brewer.”

[quote=“Denny”]I’d like to know your feelings about the following quote from the Probrewer forum

“…We sell a food grade, canola oil based…”[/quote]

I’m a bit skeptical anytime the source of information discouraging one product is selling a competing product. All things equal, I’d probably prefer something totally safe, but I use fermcap in my starters. I’ve started using a wine bucket (7.9 gallons) for primary fermentation, so I haven’t had a blowoff in a while.

[quote=“Denny”]Thanks for the info, guys. It kind of confirms my feelings…there’s likely to be no issue using it, but if I can limit its use, so much the better. I’d like to now your feelings about the following quote from the Probrewer forum…admittedly not from a medical pro.

“Brewers should not use silicone-containing antifoam for unfiltered beers. The FDA allows active silicone to be used up to 10 parts-per-million (ppm) but stipulates that the silicone must be removed prior to packaging by either filtration or centrifugation. In the case of unfiltered beers, use a food grade, non-silicone antifoam. We sell a food grade, canola oil based antifoam that works well for this purpose and has an added benefit of being yeast-friendly at the same time. Look for my article on antifoams in the brewery in the July/August issue of The New Brewer.”[/quote]

I’m curious where he’s finding the requirement to have it filtered. Taking a quick look at the regs, I’m not seeing where the requirement for filtration is coming from. It seems contradictory that they allow 10ppm, but then state that it then needs to be filtered.

[quote=“erockrph”][quote=“Denny”]Thanks for the info, guys. It kind of confirms my feelings…there’s likely to be no issue using it, but if I can limit its use, so much the better. I’d like to now your feelings about the following quote from the Probrewer forum…admittedly not from a medical pro.

“Brewers should not use silicone-containing antifoam for unfiltered beers. The FDA allows active silicone to be used up to 10 parts-per-million (ppm) but stipulates that the silicone must be removed prior to packaging by either filtration or centrifugation. In the case of unfiltered beers, use a food grade, non-silicone antifoam. We sell a food grade, canola oil based antifoam that works well for this purpose and has an added benefit of being yeast-friendly at the same time. Look for my article on antifoams in the brewery in the July/August issue of The New Brewer.”[/quote]

I’m curious where he’s finding the requirement to have it filtered. Taking a quick look at the regs, I’m not seeing where the requirement for filtration is coming from. It seems contradictory that they allow 10ppm, but then state that it then needs to be filtered.[/quote]

IIRC, it was in the product MSDS…which I can no longer find! Here’s a bit more info…http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/FoamControl.html

The problem with data on stuff like this; you get the MSDS - which if you check it for almost any commonly used item, it would scare you enough not to use it. Also, a lot comes from data extrapolated from studies on mice. On the flip side human data is expensive to generate, and only really happens if there’s a financial incentive to do so.

So much of the warnings are generated from CYA lawyering, as opposed to genuine risk. From a medical stand-point, I can say there’s really no data to support there being any harm. It’s in products widely recommended, and also sold OTC. Also can’t find a reason for why 10ppm was used by the FDA as a safe cutoff. It is eliminated in stool, so I can’t make sense of any physiology that would put your kidneys in danger, that’s a completely different elimination process. It also states it has zero bioavailability, meaning there’s no absorption regardless.

This recommendation comes with the caveat of this is as we know it now. Surgeons didn’t used to wash their hands, and some Dr’s recommended smoking as a cure for anxiety and weight loss…

:cheers:

[quote=“DrBrews”]This recommendation comes with the caveat of this is as we know it now. Surgeons didn’t used to wash their hands, and some Dr’s recommended smoking as a cure for anxiety and weight loss…

:cheers: [/quote]

Breast feeding is an effective form of birth control. :roll:

Well, that’s what they told my mom 41 yrs ago.

Like I said, I doubt it’s too big a deal. But I think it’s important to give people the info so they can make their own decisions.