What’s your favorite yeast for fermenting cider? Why?
I have tried a lot of different yeasts. Of the yeasts I have tried, US-05 and Cote des Blancs give the best tasting ciders. The drawback with both if it is a drawback at all is that they ferment out very dry around 0.992-0.995 so you either need a special process or backsweetening to balance the cider at the end of fermentation.
D47 is also great for a long aged cider. I’m not sure why, but after about a year in secondary or in the bottle, the cider really mellows and the apple flavor and some sweetness really comes through.
My favorite ciders, though, are fermented naturally with the wild yeasts on the skins. It’s somewhat unpredictable, but that’s half the fun of it. If you wanted to simulate something like that, one of the yeast labs’ sacch/brett blends would probably be close to simulating this.
I don’t like the risk of wild yeast, nor the flavor usually. I play it safe. I don’t even like Campden anymore. I use heat pasteurization, 160 F for 15 minutes.
Dave, what don’t you like about the flavor from wild yeast in cider? I could see with your method of racking, getting too much oxygen in it and ending up with vinegar, but the ones I’ve done with just letting them sit usually retain some sweetness from lower attenuation and the funk is pretty restrained. Still there, but restrained. Not dissing you by any means, just curious.
Agree on the Campden, though - that’s a sure fire way to ruin a good cider! Won’t be making that mistake again.
I don’t like musty moldy flavors. I pick it up in ciders from other home cidermakers and some commercial ciders. I understand that it’s traditional but I just don’t like my cider tasting like a damp basement, and I can only assume that it’s either from wild critters, or maybe from the apples actually sitting in a damp basement for too long before juicing! I never get that in my own ciders, they’re clean as a whistle as far as funk or dankness goes.
Mmmm… I’ll have some of that dank basement cider! :mrgreen:
Just keep the Campden away from it. :cheers:
Can you guys expand on this? How does Campden negatively affect a cider?
I don’t know Dave’s experience, but I’ve run into issues of the sulfites affecting yeast health negatively and throwing ridiculous amounts of sulfur. Even giving it a good 48 hours to dissipate, some of the worst ciders I’ve made had horrible sulfur-based off flavors. It’s not as bad with wine yeast, as they’re a little more tolerant of sulfites, but with an ale yeast the end result can be just awful. I suppose it depends on your taste threshold, but I can taste it even after being aged for a long time. Just doesn’t dissipate. If you’ve run into the “rhino farts” threads out there, I believe Campden is a major contributor to this. Without the sulfites, I haven’t noticed significant sulfur odors during fermentation.
I haven’t tried pasteurizing and don’t know if it affects flavor, but I’ve had good luck with just pitching a large, healthy amount of yeast in the raw cider and letting it out-compete the natural yeast and bacteria. There is the risk of acetobacter, so minimizing air contact is critical. But for clean ciders, I’ve had good results with this.
I’ve had occasional sulfur, both with and without Campden, and it’s been several years since I’ve actually used Campden at all, so I’m not positive whether it makes the sulfur worse or more prominent.
The reason I don’t use it is that it doesn’t really seem to work. Throw in Campden, wait a day or two, then throw in your yeast, and fermentation takes off. Something just doesn’t seem right about this. The Campden doesn’t just magically go away after a day or two, most of it stays in there as far as I can tell. Then at the end of the fermentation, it’s supposed to prevent re-fermentation in the bottle or keg. Well, I’m not convinced that it does this very well.
Also Campden/sulfites cause an odd bitter salty kind of taste in the cider. And it can be overused if you add it both up front and at the tail end, making the flavor issues more prominent. Naw, no thanks.
My cider turns out great every single time using heat pasteurization instead of Campden. Cider snobs will poo-poo the heat pasteurization thing, and promote Campden/sulfites and sorbate. Well, I disagree for the most part. There may be occasions where chemical treatment is useful, but not if you have the capability to heat pasteurize. I always was kind of a rebel… :mrgreen:
P.S. Why do people hate heat pasteurization? They say it will cause a cooked apple flavor in the cider. Cooked apple flavor… hmm… what does that sound like… apple sauce and apple pie!? I don’t mind those flavors at all!!! Another thing is it can cause haze. Well, maybe. But any effects of these things are minimized by not boiling but only bringing to like 160 F for a few minutes. Don’t boil the snot out of it. Just do a gentle heating, cool, pitch, and roll. Makes fantastic appley ciders. I’ll never change, never.
I’ve gotten that as well. Seems worse with sodium metabisulfate than potassium metabisulfate. I’ll take a cider any day that tastes like it sat for years in an old wine cellar, but keep those chemicals away from my cider!
This thread has gone in an unexpected, but interesting direction.
I’ll be making cider for the first time this weekend thanks to a bulk buy my club has organized with a local cider mill. I really like ciders that have a musty, rustic character, but a full wild fermentation seems too risky to me at this point. I am not interested in pasteurizing (mainly because of the additional effort/time required). I’m leaning toward the pitch and out-compete approach–recognizing there’s some risk involved.
I’m flirting with splitting 10 gallons between S-05 and a sach/brett combo (e.g., WLP670).
I’ve tried Brett in a cider before and personally I did not like it at all even though I love Brett in beer. But the Spaniards love it in their sidra. So, to each his own. The US-05 half should turn out fantastic.
Another thing you could try, do all 10 gallons with US-05, but add something like Lambicus or Clausenii to 5 gallons in secondary. Neither of those two strains should get too weird on you, but should give you some rustic funk like in a traditional English cider.
I’d agree, going with a wild ferment with purchased cider is too risky. I press my own apples and have a good feel for what the wild yeasts on the skins will do, but who knows what will be along for the ride with purchased cider.
I’m probably doing a primary ECY dirty dozen batch this year. I want it to get all weird, though!
That’s an excellent idea, sans the Brett C, which produces a vile flavor profile IMO. I’ll have a look at what Brett strains my LBHS’s have on hand. I’m also thinking about going exclusively with US-05 and backsweetening one of them with some type of berry juice concentrate. My wife would probably like that. Maybe I need to do 15 gallons, so I can do all three.
I’m thinking of doing a mulberry cider this fall. Mmm…
[quote=“dmtaylo2”]I’ve had occasional sulfur, both with and without Campden, and it’s been several years since I’ve actually used Campden at all, so I’m not positive whether it makes the sulfur worse or more prominent.
The reason I don’t use it is that it doesn’t really seem to work. Throw in Campden, wait a day or two, then throw in your yeast, and fermentation takes off. Something just doesn’t seem right about this. The Campden doesn’t just magically go away after a day or two, most of it stays in there as far as I can tell. Then at the end of the fermentation, it’s supposed to prevent re-fermentation in the bottle or keg. Well, I’m not convinced that it does this very well.
Also Campden/sulfites cause an odd bitter salty kind of taste in the cider. And it can be overused if you add it both up front and at the tail end, making the flavor issues more prominent. Naw, no thanks.
My cider turns out great every single time using heat pasteurization instead of Campden. Cider snobs will poo-poo the heat pasteurization thing, and promote Campden/sulfites and sorbate. Well, I disagree for the most part. There may be occasions where chemical treatment is useful, but not if you have the capability to heat pasteurize. I always was kind of a rebel… :mrgreen:
P.S. Why do people hate heat pasteurization? They say it will cause a cooked apple flavor in the cider. Cooked apple flavor… hmm… what does that sound like… apple sauce and apple pie!? I don’t mind those flavors at all!!! Another thing is it can cause haze. Well, maybe. But any effects of these things are minimized by not boiling but only bringing to like 160 F for a few minutes. Don’t boil the snot out of it. Just do a gentle heating, cool, pitch, and roll. Makes fantastic appley ciders. I’ll never change, never.[/quote]
I can explain some of this. Over time, sulfite (campden) gets bound up by O2 and other compounds so that it becomes ineffective at inhibiting microbes. The higher the pH, the faster this happens, and so you need to add higher amounts at higher pH for it to be effective. The upper limit for it being useful is around 4.0, which happens to be about where cider sits (this obviously explains why it isn’t use in beer). But with wines and ciders, you can add some sulfites where it will shock whatever microbes are already present so they are not at full strength when you pitch the yeast. You typically wait 12-24 hours to pitch the yeast, which gives the sulfite time to get bound up. Plus, if you are using wine yeast, it has been selectively conditioned over centuries to be sulfite tolerant. When added just before bottling, the sulfite will stay unbound longer, mostly because there isn’t (at least shouldn’t) be a lot of O2 present to bind with.
Sulfur notes in the cider are not from sulfites, they are from yeast metabolism. Controlling that is a function of proper nutrients (not typically a problem with ciders), fermentation temperatures, and as in lagers, allowing the yeast time to clean up after themselves at the end of fermentation.
Saltiness is something I’ve never noticed, but I’ve always been careful to use Potassium Sulfites instead of the cheaper Sodium Sulfites that you sometimes see for sale as campden. I could see the sodium causing saltiness.
[quote=“rebuiltcellars”]
I can explain some of this. Over time, sulfite (campden) gets bound up by O2 and other compounds so that it becomes ineffective at inhibiting microbes. The higher the pH, the faster this happens, and so you need to add higher amounts at higher pH for it to be effective. The upper limit for it being useful is around 4.0, which happens to be about where cider sits (this obviously explains why it isn’t use in beer). But with wines and ciders, you can add some sulfites where it will shock whatever microbes are already present so they are not at full strength when you pitch the yeast. You typically wait 12-24 hours to pitch the yeast, which gives the sulfite time to get bound up. Plus, if you are using wine yeast, it has been selectively conditioned over centuries to be sulfite tolerant. When added just before bottling, the sulfite will stay unbound longer, mostly because there isn’t (at least shouldn’t) be a lot of O2 present to bind with.
Sulfur notes in the cider are not from sulfites, they are from yeast metabolism. Controlling that is a function of proper nutrients (not typically a problem with ciders), fermentation temperatures, and as in lagers, allowing the yeast time to clean up after themselves at the end of fermentation.
Saltiness is something I’ve never noticed, but I’ve always been careful to use Potassium Sulfites instead of the cheaper Sodium Sulfites that you sometimes see for sale as campden. I could see the sodium causing saltiness.[/quote]
Thanks Rebuilt, that was a really good explanation. The one thing that I’d like to add, which goes right along with what you said, is that my worst experience with cider and sulfur was using Nottingham 48 hours after Campden. It was absolutely horrible - unlike any other cider ferment I’ve done that was pretty much clean. I’m blaming the Campden, and the fact that Nottingham yeast is not adapted for sulfite tolerance. 2 years later, I’m thinking of pouring out the bottles because of the sulfur.When I use D47, no issues. Again, wine vs ale yeast.
Dave, something you might want to try… the microbes (clostridium, coliform, lacto, etc.) that are getting zapped by pasteurizing at 160F are pretty much killed above 130F. The ones that don’t die at 130F also won’t be killed at 160F. Might be worth a try holding at a little bit lower temperature (135-ish?) for a longer time to see if you notice a difference. If you didn’t, it would give the nay-sayers something to think about! I’ll have to give your method a try one of these times.
Now you’re talking! If you’re willing to go that big, maybe it would be worth making something a little more funky for a brett version. Then you would have some awesome blending options between the clean, bretty, and fruited versions!
I’ve used sweet cherry juice in a cider and didn’t care for it - it had a butyric acid note to it that I couldn’t get past. Maybe tart cherries would have worked better. Cranberries are great… really like the acidity that they bring.
This is like the coolest thread ever. :cheers:
