Brewing with phantasm in hazy IPA

I finally found some phantasm here

Has anyone brewed with this dried Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc grape skin powder? From what I read it really increases the thiols during fermentation. Need to use biotransformation with yeast like cosmic punch to get the thiols. Some say add early in fermentation others say better results at flame out. Input welcome.

Waiting to hear more

I have no experience using this. I’m not telling you anything you don’t know- Biotransformation occurs during fermentation. Often this is promoted by dry hopping. This leads me to believe that I would likely add it with my dry hops or maybe a day before.
Edit: you have a pound, so I think it would be pretty easy to experiment! :joy:. You could do a batch with it added at whirlpool, one at active fermentation, and one at whirlpool AND fermentation.

Phantasm ……horror flick from my misspent youth (1979?)actually saw this at a Drive in theater(remember those?)

Oh, ok back to brewing…

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Just bought a pound so now the education starts…

I made 7 gallons of hazy IPA wort. Its my favorite IPA brew. hopped citra and simcoe at 15 min prior to flame out. Split into two fermenters. One got 1oz/gallon of phantasm. Using omega cosmic punch. Wish I had known about helio gazer as it makes 20 times more thiols than cosmic punch! Dry hopping with cryo and regular hops. Currently in primary fermentation.

Been reading up on this. Oddly this performs better, along with thiol based yeast, without a dry hop. Maybe it’s suited for a different type of beer? Maybe hoppy beers with the dry hops converted to whirlpool?

Yeah Loopie I thought about shifting some of my dry hops to pre fermentation rather than post when using phantasm. But I have some hops going in hot side and did not want to change too many variables at once. Shifting some of the dry hops to during fermentation is the next experiment.

Good deal. I’ve also read that thiols decrease with heavy amounts of dry hops. I’ll likely just work a whole new recipe.

Loopie check out this article from scott Janish.
http://scottjanish.com/the-locksmith-utilizing-bioengineered-yeast-and-high-bound-thiol-precersour-hops-and-phantasm-powder-to-thiol-drive-beer/

I did not read the whole thing as it was late in day and Scott’s level of detail requires concentration.

Yes! I had read that. Sounds like you should mash hop, use phantasm in whirlpool, hops only in whirlpool, and a small dry hop, or none at all. :man_shrugging:

I am dry hopping with cryo hops and have the wind malt on my wish list.

This is a whole new thing to learn…which is good as well as fun.

Yeah pretty deep stuff! I too will be trialing with cryo hops to reduce vegetation. Oddly it’s kind of opposite of what you would think to do…

tasting results prior to dry hopping show a huge difference in flavor between phantasm added at beginning of fermentation and no phantasm added. the citrusy flavor is so strong my first thought tasting uncarbonated sample was pepper without the heat. When I carbonated the sample, the bitter flavor was more subdued but still strong but now it tasted more hoppy but did not seem well rounded hop flavor. Its like the beer was supercharged with the one set of flavors. The batch with no phantasm was more pleasant to drink. My thoughts are perhaps next time go with 0.5 ounce phantasm per gallon rather than one.

Will report results after dry hopping carbonation and kegging.

7gallons made with 50% weyermann vienna, 50% oat malt. mash 153 F OG 1.052 at 67F. used 1 ounce citra and 1 ounce simcoe. at 15 min. 90 minute boil. Cooled then added fermcap s, clarity ferm, and omega cosmic punch. Split into two 3.5 gallon batches then added 3.5 ounces of phantasm to one batch. Fermentation started at 68 F rose to 74F then dropped to 68 F. 20 days in primary. FG 1.008 at 68F.

That’s interesting. Would like to hear the final results. Trying to find time to trial mine.

My tasting results so far with just me tasting is both good IPAs. The phantasm had a more hoppy flavor. If I was doing a tasting of both at a bar I would select the phantasm for my full glass. The first mouthful of phantasm, I could taste the now subdued thiols possibly due to other hops being present. It was a more balanced hop flavor after dry hopping. I do not know whether more balanced due to adsorption of thiols by hops or because had to compete with other hop flavors.

Plan to have both on tap at Halloween will see what other think. Based on these results, going to keep future trials at 1 ounce/gallon. Also, will plan on always dry hopping somewhat. Might cut back on the pellets and add more cryo in dry hop.

For record, here is what I used to dry hop if I had made 6.1 gallons. I made 7 gallons so multiplied by 0.57 because split into 3.5 gallons each.
Amarillo cryo 1.1 oz alpha 14.9
Citra cyro 0.64 oz alpha 23.5
Simcoe cyro 0.59 oz alpha 23.5
Crystal pellet 2.01 oz alpha 6.6
Amarillo pellet 0.69 oz 8.7 alpha
Citra pellet 0.40 oz 14.8 alpha
Simcoe pellet 0.37 oz 12.9 alpha
I cold crashed to 34 F first then dry hopped and purged. 6 Days on hops. I cold crash before dry hop to avoid hop creep. I also use the catalyst prior to fermentation to avoid vdk.

From my reading the thiols might be stripped from dry hops settling out. Got some Omega hello and lunar crush on the way. But also want to run some trials with BRY-97 and Lallemand New England yeast.

Yeast came in. Brewing Saturday with the phantasm. Utilizing calypso and Citra in the boil/whirlpool and cryo Citra and Simcoe dry hops. Hitting it with the Helio Gazer. Pretty simple grain bill of 2 row, chit malt, and honey malt.

Your post made for a fun research for me. I had never heard of some of the hops or chit malt. Hey my beer tastes like chit man :laughing: Seriously not much diastatic power but I guess the 2 row takes care of that. “Good for haze stability.” I get a kick out of that after a lot of years trying not to have hazy beers.

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Let us know the results and would be interested in tasting results before and after dry hopping. I am putting together recipe for a mango fruit beer using 50% wind dried malt and 50% premium pilsner. Multi temp mash due to wind dried malt. Hersbrucker in boil. Still trying to get passion fruit and guava at store to sample and see how combination tastes and smells. Will likely use star party yeast thinking it will be cleaner for this style. May split wort half with phantasm and half without in fermentation. Mango puree in secondary. As always suggestions comments welcome.