For two years now I have been cutting my water with RO water and making fine adjustments with acidulated malt or lactic acid. Does anyone just use acid to adjust every beer? My water is below.
PH 8
Ca 64
Mag 20
Na 27
Cl 20
SO4 39
HCO3 266
I’m just wondering at what point to much lactic acid will come through in the final beer.
Edit: added sulfite
I don’t adjust my water as it makes good beer in most cases. I think your answer should be dependent on beer style- roasted malts will lower mash pH on their own.
That is pretty high bicarb in that water! Virtually every beer made with that water is going to need neutralization of the alkalinity.
The typical taste threshold for the lactate ion in beer is around 400 ppm according to Malting and Brewing Science. Since lactic acid provides mole of lactate ion for every mole of bicarb neutralized, you could have 200 or more ppm lactate in your brewing water. With the concentrating effect of the boil, the lactate would go up a bit more. It doesn’t appear that the typical taster would detect the lactate, but that is not to say that some might detect it. I’d say that this water is a little iffy for using lactic acid. An acid with less taste impact would be phosphoric acid.
This is what I was afraid of. Just getting tired of hauling home RO water.
[quote=“mabrungard”]That is pretty high bicarb in that water! Virtually every beer made with that water is going to need neutralization of the alkalinity.
The typical taste threshold for the lactate ion in beer is around 400 ppm according to Malting and Brewing Science. Since lactic acid provides mole of lactate ion for every mole of bicarb neutralized, you could have 200 or more ppm lactate in your brewing water. With the concentrating effect of the boil, the lactate would go up a bit more. It doesn’t appear that the typical taster would detect the lactate, but that is not to say that some might detect it. I’d say that this water is a little iffy for using lactic acid. An acid with less taste impact would be phosphoric acid.[/quote]
Thank you for the information with actual numbers, that was really helpful. :cheers:
I’ve heard that you can use 5ml of lactic acid in a 5gal batch without taste effects.
You can also use some calcium chloride, you don’t have much chloride.
My own water is similarly hard, and worse yet its fairly high in sulfate (120). So I lug RO water home and build my own water. I agree its a pain but it makes superior beer unless I’m brewing a stout. I have three 5gal carboys for Walmart RO water. Sometimes I can get my wife to fill them for me!
My water is pretty similar as Beerginer and I just do the same thing, lug home RO water to dilute my tap water to the point the bicarb level matches the style I’m brewing. I lose so many minerals in that process I often have to add back some gypsum and calcium chloride to get things back in the desired range. While a bit of a work figuring it all out at first it has become pretty routine doing it in Bru’n Water. Nice thing is following the recommend water profiles for the different kinds of beers almost always results not having to do anything additional to get my mash pH in the desired range. I’ve yet to have a batch were my mash pH wasn’t within .1 pH of what was calculated in Bru’n Water. 
If all the other concentrations are correct, the sulfate is about 52 ppm. Given that, the OP’s water is pretty good brewing water excepting for the excessive alkalinity. Neutralizing with acid should be a good alternative to using RO in this case.
That advice is making me want to try doing that with my water vs. always having to dilute with RO…
The only other limitation to using that tap water is if there is a metallic taste to it. If it tastes good, go for it.
Has anyone tried an in-house RO set up? It’s hard to justify the cost, but my well water is no good for anything other than stouts, basically. I can get 29 cent RO at the local grocery store, so I have been using it and bottled spring water delivered to the house, but the spring water is pretty expensive (about $6.5 for 5 gallons). I’m lazy, but I would prefer to be cheap, so at 29 cents a gallon, getting RO and adding back CaCl is pretty much what I will be doing, I guess, unless a reasonable RO set up for my house can be had.
:cheers:
Plenty of people have in home RO systems. They aren’t ridiculously expensive. Owning a home RO system is still much cheaper and more convenient than buying RO water, but you would have to pony up the coin to make that initial purchase. For some people, that is not feasible.
In any case, all RO users should have a TDS meter with them so they can double-check the quality of their RO source. Those vending machines are notorious for being poorly maintained. The TDS meter is your only way to assure that they aren’t selling your overly mineralized water.
If your well water is no good for anything but stouts, you may be in a similar situation as the OP. If the well water tastes OK, then it might be possible to brew other lighter beer styles by learning how to acid treat your water. A little bottle of acid is a LOT cheaper than buying RO water or a machine.
I have an in home RO machine. Actually, I put one in my office a couple years ago and easily justified the cost by getting rid of the water service we were using. For brewing, I would fill 1 gallon jugs of RO water from my office and lug home.
A couple weeks ago I finally broke down and bought an identical unit for my house. Just out of curiosity, on Friday I sent a sample of my RO water and our normal softened tap water to ward labs for an analysis. I am real curious to see the results.
I think I got my latest RO system on Cyber Monday and it was less than $250.
I’ve looked at small home RO systems at Lowes and from what I can tell it would be more expensive than buying RO. Of course my water is pretty hard and thats going to increase the number of cartridges I would have to run.
[quote=“mabrungard”]Neutralizing with acid should be a good alternative to using RO in this case.[/quote]+1 This is what I have been doing for a while now - I got real tired of hauling 15+ gallons of RO around. I use 10% phosphoric in the mash and to neutralize the sparge addition (Austin tap water is ~pH10) and then adjust the kettle pH if needed with a little lactic.
Just double checking on this since I think I’ll give it a go as I’d be happy to give up filling up water jugs.
To get the acid addition it looks pretty simple to just use the ‘Water Adjustment’ page to figure out the correct quantity and then to get the sparge water correct you just make sure the ‘sparge acidification’ page is filled out correct.
If a kettle adjustment is needed how do you know how much lactic (or any other acid) to use?
I’m assuming if one gets all minerals in the right places using acid to deal with highly alkaline water is okay for even beers like a Helles?
[quote=“Flip”]If a kettle adjustment is needed how do you know how much lactic (or any other acid) to use?[/quote]A dropper-full of lactic might shift the pH maybe 0.05 in a 15-gallon boil, so if it’s higher than ~5.3 in the kettle I’ll just add a dropper and then observe the hot break. If in doubt, I take another pH reading just to be sure. Looking for 5.2 into the fermenters, so I’ll sometimes add a little more acid at pitching time, too.
I think you’d want low salt levels for some beers and just neutralizing them won’t make them go away. For styles that are brewed with soft water like pilsner I’d still use a good portion of RO.
From memory Noonan states that water under 200ppm bicarb can be successfully treated by acidification. I am fortunate to be under that limit but I still cut for delicate styles…
I am sensitive to lactic. I could probably pick out 3ml (88%) in 5G. I am convinced the german brewers treat water and only a trace of bicarb (50ppm) remains and only use lactic to nudge the pH into proper level be it mash or sparge. From memory, that is like 1-1.5ml to 5G. Nice subtle flavor at that level. Phosphoric is much more forgiving and you might be able to push the limits.
Martin, have you heard any talk about nanofilters becoming available to us homebrewers? I have been waiting and hoping to see them eventually.
[quote=“zwiller”]From memory Noonan states that water under 200ppm bicarb can be successfully treated by acidification. I am fortunate to be under that limit but I still cut for delicate styles…
Martin, have you heard any talk about nanofilters becoming available to us homebrewers? I have been waiting and hoping to see them eventually.[/quote]
That limit from Noonan should be pretty safe. With the reported typical taste threshold for Lactic being 400 ppm, the 200 ppm bicarb limit is roughly half the taste threshold. That should take care of super tasters too.
Don’t hold your breath on getting nano membranes in the consumer-sized small RO replacement units. The best I’ve seen is nano membranes in 2.5" diameter cartridges for commercial treatment units. Of course, upgrading to one of those small commercial units is only a few thousand dollars. If you need a lot of modest ion water, its still a feasible alternative. They are more water efficient too.
I am hardly a super taster, just sensitive to lactic I guess. I know there is not supposed be any difference with acid malt and lactic acid, but I find acid malt less obtrusive.
Exhales… :mrgreen: I figured. You covered the key points, keeps some ions and efficiency… I don’t think alot of brewers realize how much waste water is generated by a home RO unit. I think there are some better units out there, but not enough to justify the expense for a few german beers per year.
Thanks
