BLAKKR (Surly version)

Commercial Beer Reviews
21

[quote=“Pietro”]@ deliusion (I’ll shorten the quotes thing)…

Well then this will certainly anger you…

http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/fine ... /index.php

I do personally agree with what (I think) you are saying however. A guy who I used to brew with (he is a professional distiller and his wife is an Ob-Gyn…aka sugar momma) has so much effing gear, and will regularly pay ridiculous prices for beer. He was ready to go in on a case of Cantillon for $500 at this auction.

If you are simply saying that each individual has his or her own barometer, I absolutely agree with you. If you are saying that no beer is ‘worth’ these prices, I vehemently disagree with you. I don’t want to get into a larger capitalistic discussion here, but if your statement is true, then the same would apply to wine, cars, antique rifles, etc. etc. etc. How is a pile of sparkplugs and steel worth $250k? How is a old non-functioning Mauser worth $5k? Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Period.

If there needs to be a market correction, than so be it. If people are paying $10 for 22 oz of garbage, then as Gordon Gekko said, a fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place. Darwinism, OTSS, etc. etc. I’m sure Stone, New Belgium et al would welcome a cleanse while they are safely aboard their arcs (that they built btw) in this flood.

This all coming from a guy who bought 4 750’s of Hill Farmstead and Brassiere de Bourges’ collaboration @ $15 per. But again, it was worth it to me at that time, and I’m sure I won’t miss $60 when I’m cracking one with good friends on a special occasion. :cheers: [/quote]

15 is much cheaper than say a darkness, or dark lord or other similar releasesrelase where you are paying 20 -25 or more
That case of cantillon in belguim is roughly 60-80 bucks

22

[quote=“Pietro”]@ deliusion (I’ll shorten the quotes thing)…

Well then this will certainly anger you…

http://www.skinnerinc.com/auctions/fine ... /index.php

I do personally agree with what (I think) you are saying however. A guy who I used to brew with (he is a professional distiller and his wife is an Ob-Gyn…aka sugar momma) has so much effing gear, and will regularly pay ridiculous prices for beer. He was ready to go in on a case of Cantillon for $500 at this auction.

If you are simply saying that each individual has his or her own barometer, I absolutely agree with you. If you are saying that no beer is ‘worth’ these prices, I vehemently disagree with you. I don’t want to get into a larger capitalistic discussion here, but if your statement is true, then the same would apply to wine, cars, antique rifles, etc. etc. etc. How is a pile of sparkplugs and steel worth $250k? How is a old non-functioning Mauser worth $5k? Things are worth what people are willing to pay for them. Period.

If there needs to be a market correction, than so be it. If people are paying $10 for 22 oz of garbage, then as Gordon Gekko said, a fool and his money are lucky enough to get together in the first place. Darwinism, OTSS, etc. etc. I’m sure Stone, New Belgium et al would welcome a cleanse while they are safely aboard their arcs (that they built btw) in this flood.

This all coming from a guy who bought 4 750’s of Hill Farmstead and Brassiere de Bourges’ collaboration @ $15 per. But again, it was worth it to me at that time, and I’m sure I won’t miss $60 when I’m cracking one with good friends on a special occasion. :cheers: [/quote]
I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be seeing in the link you posted, but I wouldn’t necessarily go as far as to say that it angers me to see high prices on beer (well…maybe somewhat) as much as it just makes me question how it can continue. And as far as your point about certain things being worth a lot of money, almost all of the things you listed (antique rifles, cars, etc.) are just that: antiques; things that have gained some sort of cultural cache over a long period of time. I’m talking about beer that just the shelf, so I don’t really think that sort of comparison is valid, and I don’t think the brewers of these beers have any real right to expect people to keep on paying these kinds of prices just because they want to rake in as much money as they can. And I’m not talking about just one or two beers on the market, either. Practically every “craft” brewer these days has taken the road of jacking the prices of their double-deucers sky high, whether there’s really anything special in the bottle or not. It’s getting pretty old. And just because some people here and there actually do think this practice is acceptable does not mean that it can continue forever. We are still very much in the grip of a miserable economy, and these kind of luxury ( I don’t know what other term to use, and I think it’s really pretty appropriate, given the kinds of prices we’re talking about here) items cannot continue being cranked out by every brewer and their brother if things don’t start looking up. Anyway, I can’t control what other beer drinkers are willing to pay for their nightly nip, but I’m getting pretty sick of the lack of affordable options on the market these days, and I cannot simply forget the fact that these outlandish beer prices are becoming the norm precisely because too many people are unwilling to say “no” to them. It’s only beer, after all, and our economy is still totally rotten. I think I’ve made my point.

23

[quote=“deliusism1”]
I’m not sure what I’m supposed to be seeing in the link you posted, but I wouldn’t necessarily go as far as to say that it angers me to see high prices on beer (well…maybe somewhat) as much as it just makes me question how it can continue. And as far as your point about certain things being worth a lot of money, almost all of the things you listed (antique rifles, cars, etc.) are just that: antiques; things that have gained some sort of cultural cache over a long period of time. I’m talking about beer that just the shelf, so I don’t really think that sort of comparison is valid, and I don’t think the brewers of these beers have any real right to expect people to keep on paying these kinds of prices just because they want to rake in as much money as they can. And I’m not talking about just one or two beers on the market, either. Practically every “craft” brewer these days has taken the road of jacking the prices of their double-deucers sky high, whether there’s really anything special in the bottle or not. It’s getting pretty old. And just because some people here and there actually do think this practice is acceptable does not mean that it can continue forever. We are still very much in the grip of a miserable economy, and these kind of luxury ( I don’t know what other term to use, and I think it’s really pretty appropriate, given the kinds of prices we’re talking about here) items cannot continue being cranked out by every brewer and their brother if things don’t start looking up. Anyway, I can’t control what other beer drinkers are willing to pay for their nightly nip, but I’m getting pretty sick of the lack of affordable options on the market these days, and I cannot simply forget the fact that these outlandish beer prices are becoming the norm precisely because too many people are unwilling to say “no” to them. It’s only beer, after all, and our economy is still totally rotten. I think I’ve made my point.[/quote]

The way it continues is for people who are extremely/moderately loaded develop an interest in vintage/cellarable beer. There will undoubtedly be a flight to quality though as people’s palettes develop and certain brands gain additional notoriety. The link I posted was for the auction where bombers/750’s were going for north of $100 per. As far as the comparison to antiques, many beers age beautifully! Which, in some of cases on this auction, is precisely what people are paying for: Higher alcohol, darker beers that can (and do) become increasingly amazing by aging them.

I didn’t realize the distinction you were making though: that craft beer in general is overpriced, particularly the regular releases. That is a good point indeed, but I also realize that a lot of these smaller startups are exposed to a lot of financial risk, and they are trying to get an appropriate return. That said, I don’t buy much beer anymore, unless something is mispriced (hello case of GF Saison Diego for $20!)

I think we’ve discovered an interesting segment of the craft beer demand though: CRAFT BEER drinkers (like me and likely many others on this forum) who have all but exited the market! To your point, it’s largely because I was (also) sick of paying $10 for a bomber of something that I could make of equal or better quality. The result is that I rarely buy beer unless I have a gift card, its something REALLY special, or as stated, if its mispriced/on sale.

If you were simply making the statement that “Local Brewcrafters’ Pale Ale” is not worth $10/bomber, then yes I agree with you indeed :cheers:

24

[[quote]If you were simply making the statement that “Local Brewcrafters’ Pale Ale” is not worth $10/bomber, then yes I agree with you indeed :cheers: [/quote]
Yes, that pretty much sums it up, but I still think it’s pretty damn presumptuous on the part of these brewers to assume that their beers are going to attain any sort of cult/antique status just because they think their beers are so damn special, and slap a ridiculous price tag on it right off the bat accordingly. It’s up to the market to dictate whether a beer is really worthy of a high price tag and cult status, not the brewers. If a brewery wants to put a beer on the market at a certain price, and then go on to test the waters with gradual price hikes to see if the market will support them, that’s not such an outlandish thing to do, if their product is really worth a higher-than-average price. But the way all these Jonny Come Lately breweries think they can price their brand new product like it’s 30-year-old Dom Perignon positively reeks of hubris, in my opinion.
And another point I didn’t touch on before is the speed at which this elevated price point assumed dominance in the beer market. It was only maybe two years ago that you could still find at least a few bombers on the market that cost around $3 to $4. Then, practically overnight, that changed. About the only bombers on the market I can find any more that don’t cost an arm and a leg are Sam Adams Boston Lager (my old standby favorite) and Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, or at least those are the only ones I can find that I really want to drink. For a little while there, even the imports were still running around that same price, and now it’s even getting nearly impossible to find one of those that aren’t too expensive. I’m thinking that’s because they, too, are taking up the example of these new micros and their skyrocketing prices. Anyway, I don’t want to repeat myself or carry on forever :blah: . I think I’ve made my point clearly enough.

25

Let me ask you this though: why are you even buying beer? I happen to agree with you on the absurd pricing, but it doesn’t affect me. It affects the weekend ‘beer guys’ who haven’t bother how to learn to throw some grains in some water and boil it.

I don’t mean to sound haughty or arrogant, but I am so far from a point where I would put a 6-pack or bomber of Sam Adams Boston Lager (which is a good beer IMO) in my shopping cart. I brew (and bottle) often enough where I have a variety of stuff that I like to drink way more than what I can find in a store anyway. Isn’t that part of the fun of homebrewing?

26

Not going to bother debating beer prices, if people don’t want to pay they won’t. The market is fairly efficient and works itself out.

Had BLAKKR on tap over the weekend and I liked it quite a bit. I’d put it up there with my other favorites of the style, Deschutes Hop in the Dark and New Glarus’ Black Top.

27

Oh, Black Top. Can’t wait for it again.

28

I had the Real Ale version Friday night at a home brew club meeting. I got there late so my palate was still fairly fresh. It was good. It had a big, citrus hop character without any of the milk weed or cat pee character that I taste in so many big IPAs. I tasted a few stouts before this beer so I could not comment on the dark malt character.

I agree with the price increases on so many beers, but a lot of that is because of high fuel costs. Everything has to be shipped to make the beer and to sell the beer. You are also paying for barrels and conditioning rooms with those big, barrel aged beers. I prefer to drink my home brew, but there are a few styles that are not practical to brew so I don’t mind paying for those. My friend in the beer retail sector says you have to think of these kinds of beers like wine. They are a craft product and you are going to pay more for better quality ingredients. Most of these beers have double the malt and hops of any of my house beers. I am lucky to live in a state where I can buy singles so I try a lot of beers for $1.49-1.99 a 12 Oz. I also have a lot of friends so I get to try a lot of beers at bottle shares and get togethers where we all bring an expensive bottle or two. This helps me try a lot of beer, support craft beer, and be cheap at the same time.

29

[quote=“SA Brew”]I had the Real Ale version Friday night at a home brew club meeting. I got there late so my palate was still fairly fresh. It was good. It had a big, citrus hop character without any of the milk weed or cat pee character that I taste in so many big IPAs. I tasted a few stouts before this beer so I could not comment on the dark malt character.

I agree with the price increases on so many beers, but a lot of that is because of high fuel costs. Everything has to be shipped to make the beer and to sell the beer. You are also paying for barrels and conditioning rooms with those big, barrel aged beers. I prefer to drink my home brew, but there are a few styles that are not practical to brew so I don’t mind paying for those. My friend in the beer retail sector says you have to think of these kinds of beers like wine. They are a craft product and you are going to pay more for better quality ingredients. Most of these beers have double the malt and hops of any of my house beers. I am lucky to live in a state where I can buy singles so I try a lot of beers for $1.49-1.99 a 12 Oz. I also have a lot of friends so I get to try a lot of beers at bottle shares and get togethers where we all bring an expensive bottle or two. This helps me try a lot of beer, support craft beer, and be cheap at the same time.[/quote]

there is no malt character to it which is probably why you didnt taste it.

THe double malt and hop thing doesnt really stand up because prices do not reflect that from smaller beers to bigger beers.
WIne is completley different than beer, if you don’t have the outstanding variety of a certain grape from a certain area you don’t have the top notch wine. Low quality grapes low quality wine

30

[quote=“grainbelt”]
WIne is completley different than beer, if you don’t have the outstanding variety of a certain grape from a certain area you don’t have the top notch wine. Low quality grapes low quality wine[/quote]

I agree with the second statement but disagree with the first.

Industrialized beer has been, well, an industrialized product, dependent upon…efficient and sound industrial systems. Much of the Belgian farmhouse tradition (including barrel aging and spontaneous ferment) is about aging the product, like wine. If people want aged beer, they need to (and will) pay for it (or do it themselves).

Wine is indeed more about the agriculture, however there are also processes, including aging, that make a great wine great. Aging is the intersection of craft beer and wine.

Not to put words in grainbelts mouth (or on his handle), but I believe he is criticizing the “Local Brewcrafters’ Pale Ale” pricing, not the pricing of their Muscat-Barrel Aged Brett-Inoculated Limited Release Russian Imperial Hefeweizen. I think there is a distinction to be made.

31

[quote=“Pietro”][quote=“grainbelt”]
WIne is completley different than beer, if you don’t have the outstanding variety of a certain grape from a certain area you don’t have the top notch wine. Low quality grapes low quality wine[/quote]

I agree with the second statement but disagree with the first.

Industrialized beer has been, well, an industrialized product, dependent upon…efficient and sound industrial systems. Much of the Belgian farmhouse tradition (including barrel aging and spontaneous ferment) is about aging the product, like wine. If people want aged beer, they need to (and will) pay for it (or do it themselves).

Wine is indeed more about the agriculture, however there are also processes, including aging, that make a great wine great. Aging is the intersection of craft beer and wine.

Not to put words in grainbelts mouth (or on his handle), but I believe he is criticizing the “Local Brewcrafters’ Pale Ale” pricing, not the pricing of their Muscat-Barrel Aged Brett-Inoculated Limited Release Russian Imperial Hefeweizen. I think there is a distinction to be made.[/quote]

Its an american thing…look at the price of Cantillon in Belgium (or other similar beers) it’s cheap

32

Guess ‘cheap’ may be a matter of perspective. I gladly paid the price since I could actually buy it when in Belgium where as I can’t even find it in the States but it wasn’t like it was $2 a bottle, think I paid around 7 euro per bottle at the brewery for various 375 ml bottles or almost $10 for what is basically a 12 oz bottle. Also at the nearby bar to Cantillon that has a great selection of their stuff (Moeder Lambic) I was paying 8 euro a glass (over $11). Well worth it in my opinion but I also don’t take issue with paying ~$7 a pint for something like BLAKKR.

33

Guess ‘cheap’ may be a matter of perspective. I gladly paid the price since I could actually buy it when in Belgium where as I can’t even find it in the States but it wasn’t like it was $2 a bottle, think I paid around 7 euro per bottle at the brewery for various 375 ml bottles or almost $10 for what is basically a 12 oz bottle. Also at the nearby bar to Cantillon that has a great selection of their stuff (Moeder Lambic) I was paying 8 euro a glass (over $11). Well worth it in my opinion but I also don’t take issue with paying ~$7 a pint for something like BLAKKR.[/quote]
A matter of perspective, indeed…financial perspective, that is. I love beer as much as anybody I know, but I’d have to be pretty well off to pay that kind of money for beer, or least to pay that much on any kind of regular basis.

34

So the question is; are you willing to pay more since you homebrew? Some people see the work that goes into it and think it’s worth the extra money at the liquor store. In my opinion, I can make something similar for 1/3 the price and I know how much work I put into it.

35

YES! I am willing to pay LESS because I homebrew (moderately well)!

36

YES! I am willing to pay LESS because I homebrew (moderately well)![/quote]
Now there’s a statement I will agree with without hesitation. I’ve been homebrewing for 16 years now, and I’ve worked in a couple of small breweries, so I have a pretty good idea of what beer costs to make. I’m not about to fall for the marketing b.s. coming from a good chunk of the beer industry these days, especially when the new trend- light IPA- costs just as much to buy as regular strength beer, even though it costs significantly less to make. Yes, the stuff that goes into beer costs money, and it takes money to keep talented people on staff to keep making the good stuff, but I’m not about to pay more money than I should for something when I know I can just make it myself, and make it well.

37

Guess I’m the opposite, after brewing for awhile I’m fine with paying more for special beers or even market price for ‘regular’ craft beers. I’ve chatted with quite a few of the pro-brewers in the Twin Cities and all of them are passionate about what they are doing and I don’t see any of them getting rich off it. Reality is that about 90%+ of the beer I drink is mine so for the few beers I do buy I don’t mind paying a bit extra for something novel or well executed by a pro brewer.

38

not rich? There has been a ton a new breweries in the past couple years so yes they are maybe not rich but well off minus the dozen or more that are only a year or two old. The likes of Studrud, Omar, and a few others are very very well off and you are fooling your self if you think not

39

I don’t mind it either, particularly to support a local brewery. I think the distinction delusion was making was that it is unsustainable/disagreeable for most to regularly pay the price/oz. that most craft breweries charge for their not-so-novel or necessarily well-executed beers, which I agree with.

That being said, my brewing partner and I are hitting up a new nano tonight that just leased some pretty pricey space by the canal in our town. I’m not assuming this will be a cheap session, but if they are good guys and make good beer, it may be worth it for an occasional trip…

40

They are exceptions and not the rule. Also I take no issue with Mark doing well after forging new ground in craft beer since 1986 and Omar (and the rest of the crew) has put in an impressive amount of work to get Surly established and maintain a strong following, happy to see him do well. To each their own but it seems an odd rule to not buy products because a company is doing well and growing. Do you not use Windows because Bill Gates is rich or OSX because Apple has hoards of cash? Spend your money how you see fit, I have no issue with spending some of mine on well executed beer even though I am capable of making my own.