Not that I’m aware of. They had no idea of pH, so they didn’t do anything about it. Souring happened naturally, which is why I say that the beer was likely very different from what we think of.
Truthfully, those are tax laws, not purity laws.
Truthfully, those are tax laws, not purity laws.[/quote]
Not to nitpick, but “Reinheit” translates to “purity” and “gebot” translates to “rule” among other things.
Not that I’m aware of. They had no idea of pH, so they didn’t do anything about it. Souring happened naturally, which is why I say that the beer was likely very different from what we think of.[/quote]
Exactly my point. Don’t you think they could figure it out even though they didn’t know what pH was. Give our forefathers some credit
Truthfully, those are tax laws, not purity laws.[/quote]
Not to nitpick, but “Reinheit” translates to “purity” and “gebot” translates to “rule” among other things.[/quote]
Yes, but the real purpose was to keep wheat out of the hands of anyone but the upper class…no matter what they call it.
Not that I’m aware of. They had no idea of pH, so they didn’t do anything about it. Souring happened naturally, which is why I say that the beer was likely very different from what we think of.[/quote]
Exactly my point. Don’t you think they could figure it out even though they didn’t know what pH was. Give our forefathers some credit[/quote]
Based on my study of historical beer, no, I don’t think so. As was pointed out they took what they could get because it had alcohol in it and it wouldn’t kill them like water did.
This discussion is getting a little weird. We’re debating whether our ancestors could brew good beer or not due to their lack of understanding of water chemistry and pH, etc. If we step back for a second, these people figured out how to malt grain. It’s not that straightforward of a process, yet they figured it out through trial and error without knowing the science behind it. Yes, modern malts are more highly modified, yet they developed brewing processes to make use of what they had.
These same folks also created decoction as a way to effectively mash grains without knowing why it worked, and without thermometers. It’s actually quite ingenious of them, but they figured out that a certain percentage of the mash, when boiled and recombined in the mash tun, yielded good results. Doesn’t it follow that they may have found means to control mash pH, even though they did not know what pH was?
I think I’m with Brew Cat on this, we’re not giving them enough credit! Good discussion, folks, carry on!
Exactly my point. Don’t you think they could figure it out even though they didn’t know what pH was. Give our forefathers some credit[/quote]
Based on my study of historical beer, no, I don’t think so. As was pointed out they took what they could get because it had alcohol in it and it wouldn’t kill them like water did.[/quote]
If that were true they would just leave some fruit juice out in the open it would ferment into alcohol and they would just drink that. Why bother mashing at all. Your reasoning doesn’t make sense.
Not to nitpick, but “Reinheit” translates to “purity” and “gebot” translates to “rule” among other things.[/quote]
Yes, but the real purpose was to keep wheat out of the hands of anyone but the upper class…no matter what they call it.[/quote]
Wait a minute: are you accusing the people who were in charge of making laws in 16th century Bavaria of slapping a noble sounding but misleading name on the statute just for propaganda purposes? I’m shocked politicians would sink so low. Glad we don’t need to deal with things like that in modern America.
[quote=“porkchop”]This discussion is getting a little weird. We’re debating whether our ancestors could brew good beer or not due to their lack of understanding of water chemistry and pH, etc. If we step back for a second, these people figured out how to malt grain. It’s not that straightforward of a process, yet they figured it out through trial and error without knowing the science behind it. Yes, modern malts are more highly modified, yet they developed brewing processes to make use of what they had.
These same folks also created decoction as a way to effectively mash grains without knowing why it worked, and without thermometers. It’s actually quite ingenious of them, but they figured out that a certain percentage of the mash, when boiled and recombined in the mash tun, yielded good results. Doesn’t it follow that they may have found means to control mash pH, even though they did not know what pH was?
I think I’m with Brew Cat on this, we’re not giving them enough credit! Good discussion, folks, carry on![/quote]
People were quite clever, but short on the science underpinning why things worked the way they did. That means trial and error formed the basis of successful brewing technology for the most part. People did make adjustments to bring mash pH into line, but they did that by varying the malt bill, using lighter or darker malts to compensate for the local water. But they probably had no idea why that worked, and most likely thought it had some property intrinsically tied to color, not acidity (I’m speculating here, but from my reading that ties in to how people often thought before the scientific method became widespread). The pH scale was only introduced as a scientific tool to quantify acidity in 1909!
Dave,
I followed your decotion instructions and they were very helpful. Thanks for posting them. I had to tweak a bit to hit my temperatures but I mostly think that was because I didn’t draw off enough thick mash to start and missed my first temp. I had to adjust on the fly but it was easy enough. The process was much longer than normal AG but maybe the extra flavor from the boiled mash will make the final product worth the extra effort. I hit all my numbers after the early miss and the wort tastes and smells divine.
I don’t have a dedicated lager fridge and will rely on a swamp cooler for the first part of my fermentation. But I think I will get temps close to the schedule. I’m looking forward to tasting my first try at a Dunkel in 2016.
Anyone have and swamp cooler tips? I’ve got a back corner of my basement which is about 58F right now.
Thanks to all for posting helpful info.
Groovy. I bet your dunkel turns out great.
A wet t-shirt and fan should knock 5 degrees off and take it down to 53 F. Place your fermenter into a small tub or tray on the floor. Place a soaking wet t-shirt onto the fermenter with the shirt touching the water in the tub so it can wick more water due to evaporation. Speed the process by blowing a fan on the fermenter at low speed. Boom. You may also add ice bricks to the tub if you wish to hopefully reduce temp by another couple degrees, but you need to change it out 2-3 times per day when it melts.
I have never done a true swamp cooler. The above is my version that works fine.
If it is reasonably cool or cold in your garage or outside you can also do that. I have 3 batches of cider in the cold Wisconsin garage right now.
I’ve got my fermenter bucket in a metal tub on the cold basement floor with a few frozen 2L bottles around the fermenter and a blanket over the top to keep the cold in. The temp was holding at about 51F this morning so right in suggested Wyeast temp range. I’ll swap out the bottles as needed. I might try adding a wet t-shirt as you suggested but my wife has most of those.
I live in Northern IL and could move the bucket outside or to my garage. But the forecast for next several days ranges from 51F high to 25F low. The forecast low temps are far below what Wyeast suggests for my yeast so maybe I’m better off leaving my fermenter inside with the ice for now?
Can’t wait to taste this Dunkel and it is probably a good thing that I won’t serve it until after Christmas and NY guests are gone. Leaves more fro me.
If you have 51 F with the ice packs, then keep it where it’s at, that should work fine!
The best thing I can suggest is to fill that tub with cold water and take the temperature of the water a couple times daily. Because of the thermal mass effect, the temp of the water bath will be within a degree or maybe 2 of the fermenting beer. Add ice bottles when necessary. I’m currently fermenting the 1st of my lager series for this year and am able to maintain temps between 48-50. I do have the tub sitting near the door to my garage and crack open the door to let in some chill, or close it when it’s enough. During the day while I’m away and that door has to stay locked , I add 1 half-gallon ice bottle.
Yes, I’m cheap… But my labor is free. :cheers:
I use a swamp cooler for my lagers. 4 gallons of water in the cooler with 2 1L frozen water bottles every 12 hours keeps it at 52 degrees in a year round 70 degree room.
I’m always tempted to try the garage in winter but we have tremendous temperature swings all winter here. Might be singe digits one night and 60 the next day.
Sounds like your method is working for you. The key is a consistent controllable temperature.
