[quote=“ITsPossible”]Denny,
That is not so. Commercial a mashout is conducted before lautering in most cases. This is so the brewer can stabilize the mash profile and it doesn’t continue to convert into perpetuity and cause a slide away from intended OG/FG until they can bring the temp up in the kettle.[/quote]
I can tell you that at the few commercial breweries I’ve had a chance to brew at, mashout doesn’t happen.
[quote=“raspsu1”]So for example, if you take a sample with a pipette from the top of the mash or pour some out of the valve from the cooler, they could be different right? The one from the valve is likely “heavier” than the top as the sugars settle to the bottom. In a mixed or active biling where you have mixing, the density should be close to uniform, correct?[/quote]The answer is “yes” to both questions. 
Sugars don’t settle to the bottom, they are dissolved when they are cut away from the suspended starches. So I think the answer to both the OP’s questions are “no”. The readings would be the same. This isn’t the same as pouring extract in a kettle and having it settle to the bottom, in that case sure there could be stratification.
See, now you’ve caused two fights to break out! Or is it three?
Nice.I want to be the guy that got this forum shut down due to too excessive fights! I’ll finally be famous in the HB communities for something!! Mwaahahahahah.
[quote=“tom sawyer”]Sugars don’t settle to the bottom, they are dissolved when they are cut away from the suspended starches. So I think the answer to both the OP’s questions are “no”. The readings would be the same. [/quote]At the end of the mash, pull a sample from the valve and compare to a sample from the top of the mash and you’ll find that the gravities are very different (higher at the bottom). This assumes that you didn’t stir the mash or add more water to it during the mash. And his second question was could you assume that the gravity in the kettle is consistent because of the boil - pretty sure that’s a solid “yes” as well.
I didn’t look at question two, so we have common ground.
How would you explain how a soluble component like a monosacharide would accumulate in the bottom of the tun? Its dissolved, not suspended.
Personally, I stir my mash at least every 30 minutes. Not to homogenize anything but I think it might help to move around the larger starch chunks so they get acted on by enzyme. I almost never measure gravity during the mash so I’m not arguing this point based on observation, just theory. And because I have nothing better to do other than work.
Big Mod is watching you. Maybe the NSA too.
[quote=“raspsu1”]Nice.I want to be the guy that got this forum shut down due to too excessive fights! I’ll finally be famous in the HB communities for something!! Mwaahahahahah.[/quote]If Brooklyn Brewer couldn’t do it, I don’t think you have much of a shot at the title.
[quote=“tom sawyer”]How would you explain how a soluble component like a monosacharide would accumulate in the bottom of the tun? Its dissolved, not suspended…[/quote]Not sure of the mechanism, but I’ve observed it numerous times: long-chain carbohydrates weigh more than water and settle out perhaps?
And yes, this is more productive than work today, for sure.
[quote=“Denny”][quote=“ITsPossible”]Denny,
That is not so. Commercial a mashout is conducted before lautering in most cases. This is so the brewer can stabilize the mash profile and it doesn’t continue to convert into perpetuity and cause a slide away from intended OG/FG until they can bring the temp up in the kettle.[/quote]
I can tell you that at the few commercial breweries I’ve had a chance to brew at, mashout doesn’t happen.[/quote]
FWIW (don’t bite my head off here), None of the breweries i’ve been to, interend and/or worked at have done a mashout. To hit their desired OG they aim high, and liquor back. Familiarity with their system makes this easy to do, and we consistently hit within 1 point plato over our desired gravity. this makes liquoring back simple and we do it before the boil (our boil off rate is consistant). When it comes to final gravity, consistency and familiarity in process and yeast makes it easy to predict and hit.
[quote=“S.Scoggin”]
FWIW (don’t bite my head off here), None of the breweries i’ve been to, interend and/or worked at have done a mashout. To hit their desired OG they aim high, and liquor back. Familiarity with their system makes this easy to do, and we consistently hit within 1 point plato over our desired gravity. this makes liquoring back simple and we do it before the boil (our boil off rate is consistant). When it comes to final gravity, consistency and familiarity in process and yeast makes it easy to predict and hit.[/quote]
That’s what I’ve seen, too. I’d be hard pressed to come up with a brewery I’ve worked with that does a mashout.
[quote=“S.Scoggin”]FWIW (don’t bite my head off here), None of the breweries i’ve been to, interend and/or worked at have done a mashout.[/quote]+2 I’ve never seen a direct-heated mashtun in a commercial brewery (that I recall) and in order to minimize equipment costs, the MT is usually as small as possible, so there’s no way to do a mashout by infusion.
Not to mention that it would take a long time to do a mashout via infusion.
Hmmmm, what commercial brewer would need to make any step in a mash such as a second, third saccharification or mashout rest etc… via infusion, that’s crazy talk.
Well, Thanks for the feedback about mashouts, it is opposed to what I have witnessed as most brewers I have seen have steam infused jackets on their tuns to conduct step mashes if needed, do these brewers you guys know not step mash at all then? Other than that, when they runoff is it sitting in a grant or something where it is not going directly to the kettle that is fired and effectively also halts conversion?
Also the direction sort of drifted away from my main speaking point we go back to is why not 30-60 minutes as I was critiqued for mentioning and why does a small faction of homebrewers feel so stoudt about running 90 minute mashes for all beers? I guess its kind of a mind blower when you have produced close to 90% conversion overall and the run to 60/90/120+ creates so minor of a gain. I do think the uptick of 6-8% is worth going to 60 minutes but to hang on for another 30+ minutes for 2% more conversion seems like the waste of time.
I see no other benefit from experience or text that advocates a higher quality wort with this methodology. Commercial small to large brewers I know and have spoken with are never holding mashes for 90+ minutes and you would think in order to maximize grain potential they would, being concerned with every cost to make a profit. Usually I have witnessed it is 10-30minutes until SG and iodine negative show them to start running off directly to the kettle. If it is the smaller brewers around 20BBL they don’t mashoff as the wort will be in the kettle within a quick period, but the larger brewers always mashoff as they have long runoffs. This first hand experience/s is how I found out that a brewer could even see substantial conversion before 60 minutes.
This is definitely the kind of discussions I enjoy reading from others and feel that thought provoking banter is healthy. In no way should this set of post’s or contents be considered a war or argument in any way. This has been talked about before, I thought it high time to outlay my thoughts on the matter a little more crystal than in the past.
[quote=“ITsPossible”]
Well, Thanks for the feedback about mashouts, it is opposed to what I have witnessed as most brewers I have seen have steam infused jackets on their tuns to conduct step mashes if needed, do these brewers you guys know not step mash at all then? Other than that, when they runoff is it sitting in a grant or something where it is not going directly to the kettle that is fired and effectively also halts conversion? [/quote]
We go from mash tun - grant - kettle. The grant has level sensors so it pumps into the kettle when the grant fills (this takes a few minutes). The grant only holds about a quarter barrel. our kettle is turned on almost immediately after we start running off. Tomorrow i will ask my boss how his 15 minute mash schedule worked exactly - at his previous employer (if you guys are interested).
I have yet to see a brewery that does any type of step mashing. With today’s malt it’s really not necessary and from a business perspective, many view it as a waste of money (time and energy). I am accustom to smaller breweries, I can’t speak for 100+ bbl systems.
edit: As for the rest of your paragraph, i’ll leave that you, and denny. I simply don’t know enough.
