Also sugar is 100% fermentable so your attenuation will improve greatly with 2 lbs added in a 5 gallon batch no matter what Yeats is used. My math shows 84% attenuation.[/quote]
Just because sugar is 100% fermentable does not mean that beer yeast will ferment 100% of it. Beer yeast has a definite cutoff limit on what it can digest, no matter how simple the sugar is. Even the driest beer around will have at least some tiny amount of unfermented sugar left in it, regardless what strain of yeast is used. If it were a simple matter of pitching sugar into wort and letting yeast produce alcohol, every macrobrewery in the world would be using much higher proportions of sugar in their wort than they do.[/quote]
\you are wrong. how can cider go below 1.000. try putting 1 pound of table sugar in a gallon of water and see what your gravity reading is. simple sugar is 100 fermentable.[/quote]
If you’re right about cider, it could only be because the liquid was lighter than water, which is the liquid used to calibrate the range of a hydrometer. If it wasn’t, the yeast would have to attenuate beyond 100% of the sugar to get a reading of below 1.00, which is impossible.
If this is true, i’d still like to see a source or proof of said cut-off limit. Yes sugar is left behind from fermentation, but I always believed that it’s unfermentable sugars (not from the granulated sugar added). Each type of sugar has a potential, but thats not because they leave fermentable sugars behind - it’s because they contain percentages of moisture and other stuff.
[quote=“deliusism1”]Where in the world are you getting this information?? A Scotch ale yeast that ferments to 87.5% attenuation??? Not a chance in hell, man.[/quote]I’m basing my inclusion of Scotch Ale yeast in the potential 90% attenuation club on a Wee Heavy with WY1728 that I brewed mid-summer last year with an OG of 1.095 and an FG of 1.010, making it 89% attenuation with an AG batch with no simple sugars added.
You need to go work for a brewery or a yeast research facility or something if you’re really getting attenuation like that. I don’t know what the heck you’re doing with your yeast, but you’re the first and only person I’ve ever heard quote figures like that. That kind of attenuation with a Scotch ale strain is totally unheard of.
You need to go work for a brewery or a yeast research facility or something if you’re really getting attenuation like that. I don’t know what the heck you’re doing with your yeast, but you’re the first and only person I’ve ever heard quote figures like that. That kind of attenuation with a Scotch ale strain is totally unheard of.[/quote]
like mentioned many times before. attenuation is more about wort composition. the percentages listed on websites is merely a reference point.
You need to go work for a brewery or a yeast research facility or something if you’re really getting attenuation like that. I don’t know what the heck you’re doing with your yeast, but you’re the first and only person I’ve ever heard quote figures like that. That kind of attenuation with a Scotch ale strain is totally unheard of.[/quote]
What you’ve heard and what is possible are two different things.
And is an attenuation level of 89% from a Scotch ale yeast possible, when the wort has no simple sugars in it whatsoever? I think not. Even if it were theoretically possible, why would you even want that much attenuation? Scotch ale is supposed to be malty and full-bodied, not light and dry. In a case like this, you’re going totally out of the guidelines for the style, and I don’t see why.
[quote=“deliusism1”]And is an attenuation level of 89% from a Scotch ale yeast possible, when the
wort has no simple sugars in it whatsoever? I think not./quote]
How do you know there was no simple sugars in the wort? Mashing in the mid 140’s for 75+ minutes would leave tons of them. WORT COMPOSITION DETERMINES FERMENTABILITY!!! :twisted:
If my memory serves me correctly from how to brew by palmer:
Maltose, and sucrose are disaccharide, and maltotriose is a trisaccharide. Yeast break down maltose into glucoses.
All fermentable sugars are converted into monosaccharides like glucose before being utilized by the yeast.
Moral of the story. Glucose is very fermentable. depending on your mash temperature and grist, it’s possible to get A LOT of very fermentable sugars into your wort without the extra addition of simple sugars.
As far as brewing to style - not everybody is concerned with that. Some of us brew to create beer we like to drink rather than following a guideline (which wee heavy doesnt have a category on it’s own, it’s considered a strong scotch ale - and shadetrees example is only 8 gravity points lower than BJCP suggests). regardless - a 1.090 beer fermenting to 1.010 is not something i’d consider light, maybe drier than normal, but i doubt it tasted overly dry with that OG, regardless of the FG.
My intention is not to have an argument. I’m just attempting to understand what it is you’re trying to convince us of, and if you have sources/proof to back it.
If my memory serves me correctly from how to brew by palmer:
Maltose, and sucrose are disaccharide, and maltotriose is a trisaccharide. Yeast break down maltose into glucoses.
All fermentable sugars are converted into monosaccharides like glucose before being utilized by the yeast.
Moral of the story. Glucose is very fermentable. depending on your mash temperature and grist, it’s possible to get A LOT of very fermentable sugars into your wort without the extra addition of simple sugars.
As far as brewing to style - not everybody is concerned with that. Some of us brew to create beer we like to drink rather than following a guideline (which wee heavy doesnt have a category on it’s own, it’s considered a strong scotch ale - and shadetrees example is only 8 gravity points lower than BJCP suggests). regardless - a 1.090 beer fermenting to 1.010 is not something i’d consider light, maybe drier than normal, but i doubt it tasted overly dry with that OG, regardless of the FG.
My intention is not to have an argument. I’m just attempting to understand what it is you’re trying to convince us of, and if you have sources/proof to back it.[/quote]
My point is very simple: I have never once in all my years of brewing and reading about brewing heard of a Scotch ale yeast that attenuates to such an extreme degree, especially without having any simple sugars added to the boil, thus I have to conclude that he simply does not know what he’s talking about. I’m well aware that the fermentability of any wort is a composite figure that’s not necessarily easily determined when more than one type of fermentable material is in it. But he’s talking about an all-malt wort (which should have been mashed at a high temp, if he was following proper brewing practices for the style), meaning that the most fermentable thing in it is base malt, having a maximum extract of 38 points per pound, and even that is only so fermentable. So the whole notion of the wort having enough simple sugar in it to coax an attenuation rate of 89% out of the yeast just sounds highly suspect. Sorry, but it does. I don’t intend to go on arguing about this forever. This is just one of those claims that I cannot possibly believe without observing the whole process from start to finish.
I suppose it’s easy for me to believe because I’ve seen similar numbers happen with even less attenuative yeast like WY1968. I’m not saying it’s a normal occurance, i’m just saying under the right conditions, it’s completely possible.
To each his own. All i can say is give it a try sometime, you might surprise yourself.
Deliusism you stated that you think shadetree doesn’t know what he is talking about but to anyone that’s reading this it looks like you don’t know what you talking about. You are very close minded and stubborn, do you really think it is impossible? Do you understand what that word means? You can believe what ever you want but you should not say that some doesn’t know what there talking about because there experiences are different that yours.
[quote=“hans caravan”][quote=“deliusism1”]And is an attenuation level of 89% from a Scotch ale yeast possible, when the
wort has no simple sugars in it whatsoever? I think not./quote]
How do you know there was no simple sugars in the wort? Mashing in the mid 140’s for 75+ minutes would leave tons of them. WORT COMPOSITION DETERMINES FERMENTABILITY!!! :twisted: [/quote][/quote]
Yes, a long mash will leave simple MALT sugars, but I’m referring to the fact that he said he didn’t add anything in the way of white sugar or anything like that. I don’t care how long you hold your mash, or at what length, you’re highly unlikely to coax 89% attenuation out of a Scotch ale yeast with an all-malt grist. Even if you somehow do, you’re not making what I would call a Scotch ale, you’re making something completely different. Style guidelines exist for a reason. You cannot just throw a beer together and call it by an name which does not apply to it. Working within guidelines and making a product that conforms to expectations is part of what makes a competent brewer. And BTW, I’m pretty darn sure that the attenuation range specified by yeast suppliers tells you the maximum fermentation you can expect with the most fermentable wort you can throw at it. If that isn’t what it means, I’d like to know what it does.
That’s not at all what it means. It’s just a way of comparing yeasts in a control “typical wort”. it would be more useful if the manufactures listed “high, medium, and low” attenuation IMO. There’s so many variables when it comes to wort production, that it’s very easy to exceed the attenuation range listed.
Imagine making a wort with 100% roasted malt, and a wort made with 100% pilsner malt. Both mashed at 150 - pitch the same amount of the same yeast. Your attenuation range will be far greater than what is published, and I’d bet you’d exceed the range with the pilsner wort. The fact that you’ve never experienced higher attenuation than what’s listed on the yeast manufactures website is more suspect to me than shadetrees experience.
for example: I have, and commonly hear of people exceeding the apparent attenuation range when using Fermentis US-05
[quote=“deliusism1”]And BTW, I’m pretty darn sure that the attenuation range specified by yeast suppliers tells you the maximum fermentation you can expect with the most fermentable wort you can throw at it. If that isn’t what it means, I’d like to know what it does.[/quote]As we have discussed here many times, and is even posted in this thread, the manufacturer’s stated attenuation has nothing to do with the performance you will get, it’s only useful in comparing one yeast to another from the same manufacturer. So if WLPxxx says 70% and WLPyyy says 65%, you can only draw the conclusion that in a given wort, xxx will outperform yyy. Edit: sorry Scoggin, started this reply and then got into something else, came back and posted.
How did I push 1728 to get ~90% attenuation? I have tailored my brewing process to produce big, dry beers - highly fermentable worts, healthy yeast, oxygenation, fermentation temperature control, etc. I brew often and in large volume, make the same recipes over and over, fine-tuning, and follow a pro process to the limits of my equipment which includes a walk-in cooler and CO2 transfer post-pitch. If you think that a dry Wee Heavy would be undesirable, sorry to disappoint you, but it’s amazingly delicious. The BJCP styles are fine if you want to compete, but there are many great beers out there waiting to be created.
[quote=“airlocksniffer”][quote=“deliusism1”]
9.1% ABV?? I think you’re mistaken on that figure. You would have to get 102 % attenuation from your yeast to get that level of alcohol, by my calculations, which is obviously impossible.[/quote]
Umm, no, I’m not.
8.93%-9.49% is the range between the two different calculations (the latter number is supposed to be more accurate). I have noticed I get some variance depending on what calculator I use so I’ll just call it low 9’s.[/quote]
Sorry, the reason for my confusion was because you originally quoted an OG of 1.068. I forgot that you stated that you think your actual OG was 1.080. That would account for why the ABV was not what I calculated that it should be.
That’s not at all what it means. It’s just a way of comparing yeasts in a control “typical wort”. it would be more useful if the manufactures listed “high, medium, and low” attenuation IMO. There’s so many variables when it comes to wort production, that it’s very easy to exceed the attenuation range listed.
Imagine making a wort with 100% roasted malt, and a wort made with 100% pilsner malt. Both mashed at 150 - pitch the same amount of the same yeast. Your attenuation range will be far greater than what is published, and I’d bet you’d exceed the range with the pilsner wort. The fact that you’ve never experienced higher attenuation than what’s listed on the yeast manufactures website is more suspect to me than shadetrees experience.
for example: I have, and commonly hear of people exceeding the apparent attenuation range when using Fermentis US-05[/quote]
This ^^^ !
I recently brewed a Belgian Tripel using Wyeast 1388 Belgian Strong. I wanted it to be BIG and BOOZY. Like, “Jesus… did I just take a shot of vodka or take a sip of this beer!” big. I did a 15min rest at 131F and 60min rest at 148F and a batch sparge at 168F.
OG 1.095
FG 1.008
Attenuation 92%
Wyeast says 1388’s average attenuation is 74-78%.
Now, I did add cane sugar which adds to your point about needing simple sugars to get a higher attenuation, but even without, it’s more than possible to get wildly different attenuation numbers than what Wyeast suggests. As others have stated, that’s just an average attenuation in a “typical wort”.
[quote=“dobe12”]
I recently brewed a Belgian Tripel using Wyeast 1388 Belgian Strong. I wanted it to be BIG and BOOZY. Like, “Jesus… did I just take a shot of vodka or take a sip of this beer!” big. I did a 15min rest at 131F and 60min rest at 148F and a batch sparge at 168F.
Was just doing some reading and found this article about yeast attenuation and how yeast are given their attenuation % , factors for attenuation ect… It’s a pretty good little article.
[quote=“gdtechvw”]Was just doing some reading and found this article about yeast attenuation and how yeast are given their attenuation % , factors for attenuation ect… It’s a pretty good little article.
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index. ... ttenuation[/quote]Here's the money shot if you don't have time for the whole article ("these attenuation values" refers to the manufacturer's posted numbers for each yeast):
“But since the yeast strain is only one factor in attenuation (other important factors are mashing and yeast health) these attenuation values are only useful to compare yeasts with each other and cannot be used to predict the final extract (or final gravity) of the beer.”
