this is still so perplexing. If I can ever get to a club meeting, I’ll take a growler and see if I can get some feedback.
How old were the yeast packets? At what point was the diacetyl rest done?
Not rehydrating can kill off a lot of the yeast, I can’t remember the site that had the facts on pitching vs rehydrating etc…but I do remember just pitching killed off a lot of cells and caused more esters
All the factors probably causing the issue especially for a lager (not enough o2, not rehydrating, etc)
The most current issue of BYO addresses the hydrate or not to hydrate dry yeast dilemma. I’ve always rehydrated and have never had any issues. Did a CAP and a Vienna lager with 34/70 and both turned out fantastic.
Jamil talks of killing as much as half the yeast by not rehydrating. Under pitching would cause excessive cell growth and increased ester formation. I’d say it is a suspect, if not prime suspect.
I agree it is the most likely cause. I had heard Jamil say that before, but I also read a study (done with an ale I grant) where BJCP-certified judges and cicerones were not able to tell the difference between one batch with dry yeast direct pitched, and another rehydrated (same wort) where they were not able to tell a difference.
However, looking back on the brewday and tasting the finished product, I think I have all the empirical evidence I need of which way to go in the future…
[quote=“Pietro”]I agree it is the most likely cause. I had heard Jamil say that before, but I also read a study (done with an ale I grant) where BJCP-certified judges and cicerones were not able to tell the difference between one batch with dry yeast direct pitched, and another rehydrated (same wort) where they were not able to tell a difference.
However, looking back on the brewday and tasting the finished product, I think I have all the empirical evidence I need of which way to go in the future…[/quote]
People take Jamil’s stuff as gospel and it is not always that, good brewer but information he gives is not always good and not set in stone. Or it was info he gave a long time ago and since has evolved to something else.
That also shows the caliber of a lot of judges and cicerones…I forget the site but there is some fact based studies on cell counts and such with pitching vs rehydrating and yeast it was almost 50% being killed off when not rehydrating. Various tasting was done on different pitches of the same wort. (basic brewing radio or brewing network had a podcast on it to)
I also remember for “certain ales” the not rehydrating almost helped the beer form certain esters that went with the style.
I believe it was the basic brewing radio podcast that I heard/read about.
However, going forward, I will be utilizing a study authored by Dr. Dennis Conn entitled “Brew Using Your Own Experience”, and therefore rehydrating and oxygenating with pure o2.
Another thing to consider is with the whole “kill off half the yeast” thing and most likely the reason it can’t always be detected is because half of the yeast could still be well within ideal pitch amounts. Killing off half the yeast in a packet pitched into a 1.040 wort is not a problem. It’s those borderline (1.060ish) type worts that you will probably have issue with. It’s probably a lot more obvious in a lager since the ideal pitch amount is significantly higher.
[quote=“Pietro”]I believe it was the basic brewing radio podcast that I heard/read about.
However, going forward, I will be utilizing a study authored by Dr. Dennis Conn entitled “Brew Using Your Own Experience”, and therefore rehydrating and oxygenating with pure o2.[/quote]
Dude, that is the BEST evidence you can hope to get! FWIW, when I did it, my conclusion was that rehydrating made no discernible difference.
[quote=“Denny”][quote=“Pietro”]I believe it was the basic brewing radio podcast that I heard/read about.
However, going forward, I will be utilizing a study authored by Dr. Dennis Conn entitled “Brew Using Your Own Experience”, and therefore rehydrating and oxygenating with pure o2.[/quote]
Dude, that is the BEST evidence you can hope to get! FWIW, when I did it, my conclusion was that rehydrating made no discernible difference.[/quote]
Did it on what? Big difference.
You can’t argue cell counting.
I wouldn’t say I take anyone’s word for gospel but yeah, when it comes to yeast I think he has a good deal of knowledge to offer. The brewing network podcast you’re referring to was Jamil.
At any rate it just makes sense in this scenario. If a good portion of the dry yeast died, that would lead to increased ester formation from growth, which the pils just couldn’t hide. It’s only a theory, of course, and in certain styles the increased ester formation may be acceptable. :cheers:
[quote=“grainbelt”][quote=“Denny”][quote=“Pietro”]I believe it was the basic brewing radio podcast that I heard/read about.
However, going forward, I will be utilizing a study authored by Dr. Dennis Conn entitled “Brew Using Your Own Experience”, and therefore rehydrating and oxygenating with pure o2.[/quote]
Dude, that is the BEST evidence you can hope to get! FWIW, when I did it, my conclusion was that rehydrating made no discernible difference.[/quote]
Did it on what? Big difference.
You can’t argue cell counting.[/quote]
Of course not, bjut the question is “are there enough cells to make good beer even if some of them die?” My experience is that yes, there are. In general, I’ve done my experimenting on this with beers in the 1.065-80 range.
true and possibly…but I am not chancing it with 2 minutes of extra work, which is during down time when brewing anyways. Especially when dealing with higher gravity beers.
or lagers.
true and possibly…but I am not chancing it with 2 minutes of extra work, which is during down time when brewing anyways. Especially when dealing with higher gravity beers.[/quote]
Your choice. I’ve done the testing and made my own choice.
Denny do you direct pitch lagers as well? My recollection is that you are a 34/70 supporter.
true and possibly…but I am not chancing it with 2 minutes of extra work, which is during down time when brewing anyways. Especially when dealing with higher gravity beers.[/quote]
Your choice. I’ve done the testing and made my own choice.[/quote]
By taste I assume?
Getting into big beers like that can easily hide some off flavors to…
Yep. Direct pitch both 34/70 and S-189. I use 2 packs per 5 gal.
[quote=“grainbelt”]By taste I assume?
Getting into big beers like that can easily hide some off flavors to…[/quote]
What other metric is there? I brew beers for the flavor. If you can’t taste them, does it matter?
[quote=“Denny”][quote=“grainbelt”]By taste I assume?
Getting into big beers like that can easily hide some off flavors to…[/quote]
What other metric is there? I brew beers for the flavor. If you can’t taste them, does it matter?[/quote]
If you can’t no, but others may everyones palate is different. No off flavor in a beer that you can not taste does not mean it is not there.
I am sure you have done the off flavor kit Denny? You never saw anyone taste one of them and not detect it?
I have seen a lot of people not be able to detect off flavors at all. Seasoned brewers
