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Why does my throat tingle?

Northern Brewer General
#1

I made a red ale of my own creation about 2 1/2 weeks ago using the following reciped:

8lbs 2 Row
2lbs 6 Row
2lbs Briess Caramel 60L
1 oz willamette 60 min
1 oz Uk Kent Goldings 30 min
Irish Moss at 15 min
Wyeast 1272

Mashed between 152 and 154
Mashout at 168

O.G. - 1.060

It didn’t really come out as red as I would have liked, but I’m pleased nonetheless.

I just took a reading yesterday evening and found an SG around 1.015.

Obviously I had to taste it and what I found was that I got a tingling sensation in the back of my throat. My first thought was tannins, but it doesn’t really have that feel to it.

Its still very cloudy. Does it just need more time? Or am I dealing with a compromised batch?

#2

[quote=“micahkoll”]
8lbs 2 Row
2lbs 6 Row
2lbs Briess Caramel 60L[/quote]

WOw,WOW,WOW is all I can say. Its good to craft recipes of your own design and many times you learn by default when experimenting such as today. Please do not misunderstand my meaning as harsh I am not replying simply to say wow and dismiss your ideas such as this recipe as they are productive because you are enjoying what you do anyway but your beer is going to suffer for a while unless you change things immediately.(I feel it best to be blunt here) I highly encourage new brewers to communicate with forum members before acting as there is way too much information these days and much can be misinterpreted. A good way in the future is to emulate and one off tweaks of NB recipes is a good way to start or again ask the board before dropping the dime as you will save yourself a lot of time and money until you learn what makes good combinations.

Here is the deal with your recipe. The six row was one of the major turning points, you have higher husk to starch ratio which creates higher rates of tannin extraction depending on method and user. Moderate-high alkalinity in your water will help to extract tannin from normal grain with six row its a given you will have higher tannin if your mash was high PH and/or your sparge water PH is at/ above 6 which is highly likely unless you acidified the sparge water. Most water will be basic -7PH- to about 9PH without alteration.
So Yes, I am thinking tannin is one of your primary answers. Six row is typically used when a brewer is using high rates of adjunct like rice or corn as the only advantage to six row is higher DP/ or in simple terms the ability to convert itself and other starches devoid of enzymes nessecary to convert. The disadvantages are high tannin, high protein levels and lower extract compared to 2 row. So in the future use 70-100% 2 row base and recipes become sounder in makeup.

Secondly 2# of caramel is excessive and lent to higher finishing gravity and will contribute real sweet over the top “heavy” mouthfeel in these usage rates. You want to back away from high percentages of color malts and again up the base in the future. You want to treat color grains with a “grain” of salt, a little really does go a long way.

No its not an auto dumper I have seen WAY worse combos where I wouldn’t even give you my time and this rundown and simply say FlusherRoo. I would imagine the cloudy aspect is suspended protein and tannin and will drop out in the cold. Also an uncarbed/ wort sample will usually be quite a bit different in taste than when finished. I say cold condition the fermentor to drop out as much astringency causing aspects and when it “ages” for a few weeks and carbs up it will be alright. Here is another thing I see all too often>> do not fool yourself and choke a batch down and convince yourself it was fair just for the sake of the woe that is dumping beer. If when you carb it up it just isnt good whatsoever, dump it and move on. But I dont think its going to be that bad, just a higher mouth feel and sweeter malty/caramel aroma and flavor as your hopping ratio is really low for the amount of caramel also so it will be a bit lopsided in balance but possibly still very drinkable. Wait and see is all you can do now.

#3

I think the above pretty much nailed your issues(though I don’t think 2 # of 6 row would hurt quite that much). I’d just like to add some encouragement. Don’t even THINK of judging a beer based on the taste of a sample at 2 1/2 weeks. It’s great to taste it, but just take note of the flavors and wait. Give it another week or more in secondary, and the advice of cold crashing it for a week or so in secondary would help if you have the fridge space, If not, bottle condition for at least 2 weeks, refrigerate for as long as your patience will allow and taste. The best flavor is probably not until a month after bottling depending on the style so there’s lots of improvement that will occur since your 2 1/2 week sample.

Seeking info is always a good idea, and while these web boards entertaining, nothing beats a good reference book. Check out “Designing Great Beers” by Ray Daniels. It’s pretty in depth and maybe not a page turner, but it’s a great place to look up your questions. The style chapters are particularly helpful if you’re looking to create your own recipes.

Brew on my friend!

#4

Thanks guys! A lot of good advice and definitely not to harsh. I need some constructive criticism. I think that I’m following beersmith a little to blindly and need to take a step back from it a little.

It seems all the recipes I’ve created have a lot of 6 row and a lot of coloring grains. I’m going to rethink them and give it another shot.

I am for sure going to cold crash it. Come hell or high water I’ll find space in my fridge. One question though - I’ve never cold crashed. Do I wait for the majority of fermentation to stop first?

Thanks again.

#5

Hard to tell exactly from your description of the taste but I had something similar before I understood mash pH. I’ve got high bicarbonate water that I wasn’t adjusting (since I didn’t know better) which resulted in very high mash pH. Some of beers were fine (darker beers) but some had a taste similar to what you describe.

Do you know if you’ve got hard water?

#6

[quote=“Flip”]Hard to tell exactly from your description of the taste but I had something similar before I understood mash pH. I’ve got high bicarbonate water that I wasn’t adjusting (since I didn’t know better) which resulted in very high mash pH. Some of beers were fine (darker beers) but some had a taste similar to what you describe.

Do you know if you’ve got hard water?[/quote]

I used bottle spring water from the grocery store. Same type of water I have always used (I did just buy an RV carbon filter that works really well).

#7

Yes, you want fermentation to be finished before crashing. If it wasn’t done you would effectively help stop ferments short. Typically most ale ferments will be finished with the majority of the sugars in the first 3-7 days and then you leave the beer in contact with the active yeast for another 1-2 weeks for the yeast to re uptake any bad byproducts they create during vigorous fermentation. In my experience all should be said and done within 14-20 days. Then I crash for a few days and decant the clear beer to the bottling bucket or keg.

I am glad you are one of the few that is willing to take constructive criticism and did not get “harsh-ed out” by my comments. I learned by people in my circles not sugar coating the obvious when I first started and I still appreciate the fact they were blunt to this day. I feel it made me a better brewer in the long run, where if they coddled me the learning curve may have been greater. As I stated before take a glance at NB recipes to start getting a better idea how things go together, Their recipes are good-great, but I have found that I actually enjoy some of the recipes with less color malt than they use even. So much of this starts to become personal choice after the basics are understood.

As stated above six row is a classic malt for the typical American macro brew and that is pretty much the only recipe I would use it in. Where I used lets say 60% six row and 40% rice/corn to make a Bud/Miller clone. You would say but wouldn’t they/I have tons of tannin and protein etc… No, because their/my own mashing/water/equipment/procedures etc…for six row is so exacting that there is never a tannin/ other concerns and as you advance as an all grain brewer you will understand the complex technique that are followed to use this malt properly. But just starting out is not where I would suggest mashing with six row in any recipe.

Regarding water and other I will not downplay its importance in all grain brewing, but for the meantime nail other things such as the one we are speaking about first and then look at water/PH other in the near future. When you do get ready to look at this aspect of the craft here is something I stated just the other day that holds steady here also. Just read my first post to get the best idea and my best recommendation about the entire water game etc…

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=109815#p968344
#8

Likely not the same issue that I was dealing with then. Worth it to understand water chemistry and mash pH if you haven’t done so yet.

#9

Did it happen to feel effervescent? By that I mean, similar to very light carbonation, but almost like the bubbles were running around in your mouth? I’ve found young, pre-carbed beer often has this quality. It reminds me of the “mouthfeel” of unpasteurized cheese or yogurt, and I think it has to do with the fact that you’re drinking living cultures. I imagine sipping beer during active fermentation might produce an extreme example of the sensation.

That said, I typically feel that on my tongue, not in the back of my throat.

My second all grain was an IPA that used 6-row as a base malt. I just wanted to see what it tasted like. Turned out to be really good (way better than I thought it would), and not astringent at all.

#10

“Tingly at the back of the throat” could be yeast still in suspension, but I don’t think it’s excess tannins, which typically result in a puckery, dry sensation (like with an over-brewed cup of black tea). And I don’t think 16% crystal is over the top, especially for a red ale - my house IPA is in that range and it ends up around 1.010 with WLP007, so you’re probably about done on the gravity (although a warming and rousing of the yeast might drop another point or three before you call it done). If it does end up at 1.015, you might find that the IBUs are a little low and can adjust for the next batch.

#11

Re: the increased husk : starch ratio of 6-row, wouldn’t that be a problem only if your mash temps or pH are too high?

#12

[quote=“ickyfoot”]Did it happen to feel effervescent? AKA, similar to very light carbonation, but almost like the bubbles were running around in your mouth? I’ve found young, pre-carbed beer often has this quality. It reminds me of the “mouthfeel” of unpasteurized cheese or yogurt, and I think it has to do with the fact that you’re drinking living cultures. I imagine sipping beer during active fermentation might produce an extreme example of the sensation.

That said, I typically feel that on my tongue, not in the back of my throat.

My second all grain was an IPA that used 6-row as a base malt. I just wanted to see what it tasted like. Turned out to be really good (way better than I thought it would), and not astringent at all.[/quote]

It did feel effervescent. And I think you’re right - I was probably a little light handed in my use of hops. I used to think I was apposed to a noticeably hoppy beer (IPA’s, etc), but now I’m realizing just how great that flavor is.

#13

Right on, I think you’re just experiencing living yeast doing their thing. I got some astringency (the puckering sensation Shadetree mentioned) from dry hopping recently. It’s a very different feeling, and not very pleasant (although not terrible if it’s not too strong). Fortunately, it faded after a week. By contrast, I like the effervescence of a young beer, although I prefer carbonation.

That was Shadetree who commented on the hops. But, it’s funny you say that about hop-forward beers. I burned out on them in college, and later developed the notion that heavily-hopped beers were somehow easier and less nuanced than more balanced beers. Now that I’m brewing, I’m rediscovering them and just how complex and dynamic they can be. I’ve also realized that good balance still plays a huge roll, although in a different way than you find in a “balanced” beer, if that makes sense. In particular, it has to have a strong malt foundation to buttress all that hop flavor.

#14

2 pounds of Crystal 60 is not hugely out of line - the recipe for this year’s Big Brew (Bucksnort Brown Ale) had a pretty big Crystal mix of 60 and 90 IIRC.

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