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Why can't I get the hop flavor/aroma in furious pro

I recently kegged my third attempt at he surly furious using all grain. The first time was with the kit. Although it was a good tasting beer, it did not have the piney hop aroma/flavor of furious. I have since tried to brew it two times using NB recipe. Wednesday I transferred 10 gallons from primary (where it had been dry hopping for about 13 days) to keg. I ended up with about 11 gallons so the last gallon went into a third keg and I force carbed by shaking. Again I was very disappointed. almost zero aroma pine flavor.
Whenever I use citra hops I am able to get lots of aroma and flavor. Something about the surly hop combination is giving me troubles.

Any ideas on why this is happening? Could it be my water (well water)

[quote=“Roddy”]I recently kegged my third attempt at he surly furious using all grain. The first time was with the kit. Although it was a good tasting beer, it did not have the piney hop aroma/flavor of furious. I have since tried to brew it two times using NB recipe. Wednesday I transferred 10 gallons from primary (where it had been dry hopping for about 13 days) to keg. I ended up with about 11 gallons so the last gallon went into a third keg and I force carbed by shaking. Again I was very disappointed. almost zero aroma pine flavor.
Whenever I use citra hops I am able to get lots of aroma and flavor. Something about the surly hop combination is giving me troubles.

Any ideas on why this is happening? Could it be my water (well water)[/quote]

What is the rest of the hop combination?

[quote=“Rookie L A”][quote=“Roddy”]I recently kegged my third attempt at he surly furious using all grain. The first time was with the kit. Although it was a good tasting beer, it did not have the piney hop aroma/flavor of furious. I have since tried to brew it two times using NB recipe. Wednesday I transferred 10 gallons from primary (where it had been dry hopping for about 13 days) to keg. I ended up with about 11 gallons so the last gallon went into a third keg and I force carbed by shaking. Again I was very disappointed. almost zero aroma pine flavor.
Whenever I use citra hops I am able to get lots of aroma and flavor. Something about the surly hop combination is giving me troubles.

Any ideas on why this is happening? Could it be my water (well water)[/quote]

What is the rest of the hop combination?[/quote]
.05 oz amarillo first wort hop
1.75 oz warrior @ 60 min
2 oz amarillo at flameout

Dry hop
5 oz simcoe
2.5 oz ahtanum
.5 oz warrior
.05 oz amarillo

All was doubled for a 10 gallon batch

With your 2oz flame out have you tried a hop steep or a whirlpool? I don’t have proof, and have not done any experiments, but it is my opinion so far that the boil pH does predict what you will extract from your hops. No one can say you don’t have enough dry hops. Aside from water chemistry, a good whirlpool has been the biggest improvement in my IPA’s. :cheers:

A lot of the top IPA producers are dry hoping in stages. Try dry hoping half after primary is done then transferring and doing the rest. With all those hops once they drop only whats on top will be in contact with the beer.

As above, try dry hopping in stages and/or whirlpool.

Also, you definitely need to bump your sulfate if this is extremely soft well water (which it sounds like it is). Spring for a water analysis and enter the next level of geekdom that happens to come with amazingly hoppy beer.

Or buy some distilled and build up a water profile to 250-300ppm sulfate with Bru’n Water or Kai’s water sheet (I personally like the former!).

:cheers:

I get my water before it hits the softner. I do have a water report and accordign to bruwater, my sulfate level was 40 ppm. Is that still to low? I am still a novice with the brunwater program. Per some advice on this board I entered the profile as a Rochefort. Brunwater suggested sulfate level of 32ppm.

If I understand whirlpooling, it is creating a whirlpool by stirring wort fast. My understanding also is that the wort should not come in contact with air until it is under 180 to prevent oxidation???

Dry hoping was done using a 3 hop bags, they were still half floating when I removed them from the beer.

As Pietro suggested, you need to increase your sulfate level a great deal to make the hops pop! At least get it over 100ppm. I also push mine up to the 250-300 range with gypsum. Use the pale ale profile in brunwater for your IPAs and you’ll be in the right ballpark to let your hops shine.

Thanks for the info. In the middle of a boil for 10 gallons of west coast imperial IPA. Sulfate level is 297 ppm. Hopefully this makes a difference

Forgot the fwh so i will have to try whirlpooling. At what temp don start stirring and for how long?

I’m to late now, but I usually whirlpool between 185-195F. I hope it works for you as well because you are gonna have 10 gallons of it. :cheers:

Yes, definitely try a 30 minute or so hopstand/whirlpool. And yes, 40ppm sulfate is too low for an IPA. You want it to be 200ppm or higher to get that bite.

Yes water will have a huge impact, and so will your brewing skill…
Also hop quality freshness will have a big impact.
Brewers travel out to the fields every year to select hops, same hops from different areas are going to be different

[quote=“grainbelt”]Yes water will have a huge impact, and so will your brewing skill…
Also hop quality freshness will have a big impact.
Brewers travel out to the fields every year to select hops, same hops from different areas are going to be different[/quote]

The water has been the one thing I have struggled with since gong all grain. I have been playing with/using brunwater for about a year. I am starting to get a better understanding. One question, what impact does water hardness have? When I increase the sulfates, the hardness increases quite a bit. Is the bruwater ph predictor fairly close? I do have a PH tester but have not opened it yet.

I am fairly confident in my skills, probably have 100 brewing sessions since 2008 and 20-30 of those have been all grain.

I buy hops in bulk and then vacuum seal them and store them in the fridge. They are usually gone within a year.

Adjusting my H2O profile had a bigger impact on my beers than going to all-grain. I thought…AAAHHHH now that I can use any base malt and adjunct I want the beer option was endless! Not so. All my beers had a sameness, that I didn’t have when I made extract batches with D-water. My city H2O is horrible to brew with.

I use Bru’n water, and I’m to the point now that I rarely even check my mash PH. It’s a quality spreadsheet, and just like everything, the more you tinker with it, the easier it will be.

Cheers!!

Welcome to the next stage of the obsession. :lol:

[quote=“Roddy”][quote=“grainbelt”]Yes water will have a huge impact, and so will your brewing skill…
Also hop quality freshness will have a big impact.
Brewers travel out to the fields every year to select hops, same hops from different areas are going to be different[/quote]

The water has been the one thing I have struggled with since gong all grain. I have been playing with/using brunwater for about a year. I am starting to get a better understanding. One question, what impact does water hardness have? When I increase the sulfates, the hardness increases quite a bit. Is the bruwater ph predictor fairly close? I do have a PH tester but have not opened it yet.

I am fairly confident in my skills, probably have 100 brewing sessions since 2008 and 20-30 of those have been all grain.

I buy hops in bulk and then vacuum seal them and store them in the fridge. They are usually gone within a year.[/quote]

FREEZER not fridge

It has been dead on for me, so much so that when my pH meter died I didn’t bother fixing it since my mash was always within .1 of target. I’m guessing you’re dealing with the same type as water that I am which is pretty hard, to get the pH in line I use phosphoric acid.

if you have really hard water you might as well bite the bullet and use distilled or RO, I have hard water and by the time I get distilled and cut it back and add salst and try to get everything to work out it is way way easier to just start with RO

That is where i was at but after some tips from Martin I just use my my tap water and phosphoric to correct. Ideally I’d have a big RO system (got tired of having to get jugs of RO water for every brew)but I’ve been been quite happy doing my pH correcting with phosphoric acid. I still end up needing gypsum and/or calcium chloride for most beers.

That is where i was at but after some tips from Martin I just use my my tap water and phosphoric to correct. Ideally I’d have a big RO system (got tired of having to get jugs of RO water for every brew)but I’ve been been quite happy doing my pH correcting with phosphoric acid. I still end up needing gypsum and/or calcium chloride for most beers.[/quote]

yeah I was going to go that route to , just got lazy, now I just start with RO and I have a couple basic profiles where I have salts pre-weighed out and just toss in for whatever I am brewing.
Easy and quick

I meant to say that I store them in the freezer

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