So as a minimalist I don’t have a wort chiller, but on my third batch forgot to buy ice. I immersed the pot in the kitchen sink, ran cold water, and piled in everything frozen from the freezer: frozen vegetables, chicken, fish, hamburger, Nuline freezer packs…everything.
The wort chilled, I poured it into the fermenter and it eventually turned into a nicely drinkable beer. The only drawback was that the wet food bags tended to freeze together a bit after putting them back.
In six more batches, I’ve never bought ice (costs money, I’m cheap) or prepared frozen bottles etc to float in the bath (no room in freezer, lots of hungry eaters). I keep the water level flowing amongst the food bags about 4 inches from the lip of the pot, and after taking it out wipe off any moisture that might drip into the fermenter before pouring it in. All of the beer has come out fine.
I’m not lazy, and do thoroughly sanitize (with bleach, by Palmer’s methods/measure). I flame-sanitize the lip of my yeast flask before pitching it.
So my questions are:
Is this chill approach tempting the fate of some sort of infection?
Does anyone else do this, or is even air-cooling preferable to such an approach?
If none of that stuff is getting in your wort then you’re probably not going to get an infection in your beer.
That being said, I wouldn’t use frozen food (especially meats) to chill my wort. You’re improperly thawing that meat and run the risk of a different kind of infection. Doesn’t really matter if the water is free flowing around it. If you’re bringing the temperature of the meat into “the danger zone” you’re not supposed to refreeze it for use later.
It’s really up to you though. I don’t see there being a problem with your beer doing this, though.
I don’t usually have room to freeze water bottles.[/quote]
You’ll have plenty of room after you throw out all of the meat/vegetables you’ve been freezing/thawing/freezing. I wouldn’t continue to do this, not so much for the sake of the beer, but the food you’re ruining.
That would be unfortunate. However, if the “danger zone” is 41 to 135 °F, and it takes four hours in the zone to compromise the unfrozen food, I’m not sure that’s an issue.
While I keep a well-stocked freezer, the turnover is enough that any particular item is likely to do beer-cooling service only twice, and if it does reach 41 degrees, probably not be in that zone for more than a half hour.
Well… you asked the question, and you got your answer(s). From the tenor of your last post, it sounds like you already had your mind made up.
That said, thawing and refreezing your frozen food twice, no matter how short the time, is going to have a negative impact on it. Period.
By the way, some sources quote two hours, rather than the four hours mentioned in the link you posted. My state’s food handler’s licensing authority, for one. The USDA might use the same standard, but I’d have to check to be certain…
“From the tenor of your last post, it sounds like you already had your mind made up.”
Not really, just looking for some insights (backed up by links to data) more than unsubstantiated opinions.
“That said, thawing and refreezing your frozen food twice, no matter how short the time, is going to have a negative impact on it. Period.”
Don’t see any hard data to back that up. Particularly for things like frozen juice and vegetables.
“By the way, some sources quote two hours, rather than the four hours mentioned in the link you posted. My state’s food handler’s licensing authority, for one. The USDA might use the same standard, but I’d have to check to be certain…”
So I’m still a solid hour within the safety zone. Good to know. Thanks.
I actually thought the OP was kidding to begin with. Really.
Bt if not, Templar’s response is right on the money.
And for whatever it’s worth, while the thawing and re-freezing of vegetables (and meats for that matter) doesn’t automatically present any health risks, the texture and taste are sure going to suffer quite a bit.
There’s plenty of hard evidence to support that.
:cheers:
I actually thought the OP was kidding to begin with. Really.
Bt if not, Templar’s response is right on the money.
And for whatever it’s worth, while the thawing and re-freezing of vegetables (and meats for that matter) doesn’t automatically present any health risks, the texture and taste are sure going to suffer quite a bit.
There’s plenty of hard evidence to support that.
:cheers: [/quote]
I always find it a little ironic that people make a post on a forum, where you’re obviously going to get a lot of varying opinions, then dismiss everyone because they gave their opinion.
Just Google it for yourself then if you didn’t want opinions from anyone… There really are plenty of facts out there. Many that are from much more credible sources than another Q&A forum type of website. You can start at the USDA website, which doesn’t mention a timeframe at all. It simply says if you’re thawing meat using the cold water method it should all be cooked and not refrozen.
OP, I’d go with this suggestion. Save the veggies and meat and don’t put your health at risk. Or, cook with them immediately after you’re done brewing. Problem solved.
“If you really want to go minimalist, try No-Chill brewing…”
I’d like to try that some time. Also brewing in a bag. Seems like there is a lot of innovation out there. However, I don’t think any of my fermenters would withstand the heat of no chill either in the short or long run.
“I always find it a little ironic that people make a post on a forum, where you’re obviously going to get a lot of varying opinions, then dismiss everyone because they gave their opinion.”
Not being dismissive, just questioning some of the responses. You’re right, If I wanted hipshot opinions, I could get those on any internet forum. I looked to this forum to generate informed comments, backed up either by relevant experience (I did that and it’s great/didn’t work) or data within the context of brewing experience (“you will be infected by e-coli because…”).
I have Googled the subject, and there’s really nothing definitive on this.
“Or, cook with them immediately after you’re done brewing.”
That’d probably work, but it’s simply too much food. It’s an average sized freezer compartment of an average sized fridge. And (not recommending the squeemish/chillerless try it) it doesn’t really completely thaw much of anything, especially with the drain partially open and cold water pouring in.
I went to cooking school way back when and rule of thumb was once something was thawed or partially thawed it was cooked or tossed never re freeze. Not only for health reasons but it made the meat tough. Frozen vegges get mushy. But if your family doesn’t mind go for it.
That’s interesting, but apparently things are in flux. One study says that for best results, steaks (which I typically do not have on hand, lamentably) should not be thawed. For best results they should go right into the oven frozen.
Yet another, this time for engineers, seems to say that the only permissible time to re freeze meat is to keep it at 40 degrees in the refrigerator (in the safe zone), and then return it to the freezer.
With my cold tap water pouring into a sink full of frozen stuff, and the rather limited time that frozen stuff does cooling duty, that sounds like about the very same thing.
Guess I’ll have to put the thermometer in the chilled sink water next time.
Unless some master brewer steps in with truly scary data, I’m going to brand this method CIALIS (cool in a liquid intensive sink), the “potent temperature lowering method for impotent frugal brewers with no wort chillers.”
Some would cook a steak from frozen, especially a thin one, because it allows you to get a good sear on the outside without overcooking the steak on the inside. That’s way different from continually thawing and refreezing food. You seem set on your method, and no doubt it’ll work, but food that has gone through the freeze/thaw cycle multiple times suffers substantially quality-wise, especially meat. You’re probably fine in terms of food-born illness, but the food is going to be mushy and gross, since you’re exploding all the cells within the food that give it textural structure.
