Trying to pinpoint a flaw

My water (shouldn’t be much diff than yours Matt) is 120ppm bicarb and I know from experience that dark beers get too low. Taste reminded my of celery not cola tho. I suspect the irish red (and ambers) would have been fine without acid and if acidification was made via gypsum or acid, it would be too low. I do think there is something off with water profile and/or BNW. I would investigate further. Willing to bet the bourbon flavor masked the issue in that one.

Frenchie, I would urge you to do a walk through with screen shots of BNW and water profile on next brew and then maybe we can pinpoint exactly what it is off. In addition, I would consider a 50/50 cut or 100% distilled to keep acid additions to a minimum on lagers/light delicate styles (what I do).

Have you checked the actual pH of those beers you perceive to have too low a pH or are you just making an educated guess?

If you’re not actually measuring pH there really is no way to actually know what your pH actually is. Water reports are a snapshot in time. The malt data used in the equations of the water worksheets are averages. Water varies and malt varies and sometimes enough vary enough to have an impact. The water worksheets consistently peg my calculated pH too high, so I use them as a starting point and measure mash pH after ten minutes before ever adding acid. To date I have never actually had to add acid, and I’m using RO water from a known and reputable source that properly maintains the system. Go figure…

Invest in a decent quality pH meter capable of two-point calibration and one which will enable you to replace the electrode, because they do have a lifespan and all eventually fail. I spent approximately $100 on a Milwaukee meter, buffer solutions, a wash bottle, two small sample bottles to use for the buffer solution that I put the probe in when performing calibration (to prevent contaminating the entire big bottle of buffer solution) and a bottle of electrode storage solution…

Yep, I confirmed with meter but it has been a long time since I made the mistake and not really into dark beers much anymore. This was back in the days before webforums/BNW/etc. It was a brutal process of trial and error. Semi related:
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=117439
I can dig out salt additions if you want.

I seem to remember similar conversations years ago on the tangy effect of Nottingham.

Maybe this is left field, but do you bottle or keg? there seem to be few common denominators between the two beers, if it’s not ph, yeast, then…?

[quote=“mattnaik”]Yeah with bicarb that high in your starting water I find it hard to believe that it’s a low pH issue. Unless there is some other way for pH to get out of whack. I know different yeasts will lower pH different amounts during fermentation. Maybe Notty is a high acid prodcuer?

If the only common denominator between the two was the yeast, maybe try the same recipe with a different yeast? I know some people report odd flavors (a tangy like flavor) from Notty sometimes and I have experienced this as well. It’s the reason I’ve never used it again. Would you describe the flavor as tangy?[/quote]

As a general rule, yes, english yeasts produce more acid than american. Since most brewers are in love with chico, this actually helps dark beers but really hurts pales. The typical problem of AG homebrewers is with pale beers. They are not acidifying enough during brewing then is excerbated by chico not dropping pH and the beer ends up high near 5. Here, it is the opposite; low pH from brewing with high acid yeast… When pH is off, either high or low, this gives the beer a “homebrewed” flavor. I also think that “extract twang” is actually caused by low pH since most often a new homebrewer picks a dark kit but you gotta start somewhere…

Bottled both. Wish I had kegs!

Ron