Tripel / Wyeast 3787 question

[denny]

[quote=“pete_brewer”]Ok. So how about this as an experiment:

• I’ll make a 1qt starter with new yeast using OG of 1.040 adding the yeast nutrients in the boil.
• Seperately I’ll boil 1lb of sugar in 1qt additional water.
• add both to the beer.

It’ll start the fermentation again and add quite a bit of sugar to the mix.

Good idea?

Pete[/quote]

In order for the sugar to do what it should, you need to sub it for base malt. Simply adding it in will not produce the same result.

[denny]

@mattnaik

I read in some article somewhere that it make a good tripel you should actually under pitch a bit to get the estery character expected in a tripel. In the tripel i brewed this past weekend i made a 2.2L starter of 3787 and pitched it into 5.5 gallons of 1.081 wort. I’m fermenting a little warmer starting at 66 and going to raise it to 70 slowly to get it to finish as dry as possible. 8 hours after pitching i had about 2" of krausen and was getting blowoff within 24 hours. Makes me wonder if I actually did underpitch.

That is incredibly bad advice you got! First, using pitching rate to control ester production is a very uncertain method. Second, there are as many experts who say that overpitching produces esters as underpitching. Third, esters in a tripel should be moderately restrained. I get a very close approximation of Westmalle tripel (the original, classic tripel) by pitching a 3 qt. starter and fermenting at 63-65F. The best ways to control esters are through yeast choice and fermentation temp. Using pitching rate is a crap shoot.

[mattnaik]

@Denny

[quote=“mattnaik”]I read in some article somewhere that it make a good tripel you should actually under pitch a bit to get the estery character expected in a tripel. In the tripel i brewed this past weekend i made a 2.2L starter of 3787 and pitched it into 5.5 gallons of 1.081 wort. I’m fermenting a little warmer starting at 66 and going to raise it to 70 slowly to get it to finish as dry as possible. 8 hours after pitching i had about 2" of krausen and was getting blowoff within 24 hours. Makes me wonder if I actually did underpitch.

That is incredibly bad advice you got! First, using pitching rate to control ester production is a very uncertain method. Second, there are as many experts who say that overpitching produces esters as underpitching. Third, esters in a tripel should be moderately restrained. I get a very close approximation of Westmalle tripel (the original, classic tripel) by pitching a 3 qt. starter and fermenting at 63-65F. The best ways to control esters are through yeast choice and fermentation temp. Using pitching rate is a crap shoot.[/quote]

Here’s the article. It’s from May 2012 BYO.

http://mydigitalissue.com/display_artic ... id=1036220

[quote]For starters, to get the right yeast character, you should pitch less yeast than you normally would for a strong ale. The desired yeast characteristics in a tripel come mostly from the yeast while it is growing, and if you pitch too much yeast, you will miss out on this. Pitch between half and three-quarters of the regular recommended pitching rate for an ale of this size. Do not pitch less than this and be absolutely sure your yeast is healthy. For 5-gallons (19-L) of tripel, a 2.5.3.5 qt. (2.4. 3. 3 L) yeast starter should do the trick.

You will want to ferment your tripel at a temperature high enough to keep the yeast active, but low enough that the estery character from the yeast isn’t overblown. Start your fermentation in the mid 60s °F (around 18 °C), but then let the fermentation temperature rise almost to 70 °F (21 °C) in the final days of primary fermentation. This rise will help keep the yeast working.[/quote]

[denny]

@mattnaik

That is incredibly bad advice you got! First, using pitching rate to control ester production is a very uncertain method. Second, there are as many experts who say that overpitching produces esters as underpitching. Third, esters in a tripel should be moderately restrained. I get a very close approximation of Westmalle tripel (the original, classic tripel) by pitching a 3 qt. starter and fermenting at 63-65F. The best ways to control esters are through yeast choice and fermentation temp. Using pitching rate is a crap shoot.

Here’s the article. It’s from May 2012 BYO.

http://mydigitalissue.com/display_artic ... id=1036220

[quote]For starters, to get the right yeast character, you should pitch less yeast than you normally would for a strong ale. The desired yeast characteristics in a tripel come mostly from the yeast while it is growing, and if you pitch too much yeast, you will miss out on this. Pitch between half and three-quarters of the regular recommended pitching rate for an ale of this size. Do not pitch less than this and be absolutely sure your yeast is healthy. For 5-gallons (19-L) of tripel, a 2.5.3.5 qt. (2.4. 3. 3 L) yeast starter should do the trick.

You will want to ferment your tripel at a temperature high enough to keep the yeast active, but low enough that the estery character from the yeast isn’t overblown. Start your fermentation in the mid 60s °F (around 18 °C), but then let the fermentation temperature rise almost to 70 °F (21 °C) in the final days of primary fermentation. This rise will help keep the yeast working.[/quote][/quote]

No matter what the source, it’s still bad advice. Underpitch by how much? How do you know that you are? How do you account for yeast health when deciding how much to underpitch?

[mattnaik]

@Denny

No matter what the source, it’s still bad advice. Underpitch by how much? How do you know that you are? How do you account for yeast health when deciding how much to underpitch?

You use estimated yeast health when calculating that you are pitching enough, why couldn’t you use the same logic to determine how much to underpitch by? I would think if you underpitch by the same amount each time you should be able to produce consistent results as long as everything else remains the same.

Even JZ suggests using 3 packs of liquid yeast for his tripel in BCS which would be about 25% underpitch assuming 100% viability.

All that said, looks like i only underpitched by like 12% due to the lower than expected OG.

[denny]

@mattnaik

[quote=“Denny”]No matter what the source, it’s still bad advice. Underpitch by how much? How do you know that you are? How do you account for yeast health when deciding how much to underpitch?

You use estimated yeast health when calculating that you are pitching enough, why couldn’t you use the same logic to determine how much to underpitch by? I would think if you underpitch by the same amount each time you should be able to produce consistent results as long as everything else remains the same.

Even JZ suggests using 3 packs of liquid yeast for his tripel in BCS which would be about 25% underpitch assuming 100% viability.

All that said, looks like i only underpitched by like 12% due to the lower than expected OG.[/quote]

But then you have to decide if “underpitching” really does increase esters. Many feel that’s what happens when you overpitch. In the end, though, the important thing is to identify a procedure that gives you the results you want.

[pete_brewer]

In order for the sugar to do what it should, you need to sub it for base malt. Simply adding it in will not produce the same result.

Understood. The reason this happened (no sugar) was because I was trying to build my own recipe using Brewersfriend calculator. It shows no difference in FG whether you use extract (dry or liquid) vs sugar. I still had the DME, not sugar… perhaps silly since sugar is cheaper

Next time, I’ll use 2-3lb sugar and cut back on the grain bill. Also planning to do all grain next time, which will probably help with color (for sure) and perhaps with fermentability (FG)?

Pete

[denny]

@pete_brewer

[quote]In order for the sugar to do what it should, you need to sub it for base malt. Simply adding it in will not produce the same result.

Understood. The reason this happened (no sugar) was because I was trying to build my own recipe using Brewersfriend calculator. It shows no difference in FG whether you use extract (dry or liquid) vs sugar. I still had the DME, not sugar… perhaps silly since sugar is cheaper

Next time, I’ll use 2-3lb sugar and cut back on the grain bill. Also planning to do all grain next time, which will probably help with color (for sure) and perhaps with fermentability (FG)?

Pete[/quote]

Traditionally for a tripel you want sugar to be about 20% of your total fermentables.

[pete_brewer]

Thanks for all the help. Here’s an update 2 weeks later:

Decided to add some yeast nutrients and kept the beer in the living room at around 68-70F.

It’s now 2 weeks later, the beer is completely clear now (was completely hazy before from yeast), the SG has come down to 1.025. The airlock is no longer active, but you can still see small bubbles raising from the yeast to the top. I figure I will let it go for another month, than bottle it.

Tasted the beer and it’s quite good, although a bit sweet.

Pete