Why ask the OP to do a search? Just don’t answer! If he doesn’t get the answer, then he will probably continue to search. If he does get an answer from someone else, great! Either way, it shouldn’t concern you.
The real point is it shouldn’t concern you boss, you were not an active participant in this thread and as said already nobody including myself gave the guy guff or asked him to look anywhere.
IF you look before yapping I gave him a full answer to his question.
EDIT* And if you read my reply above and in blue I am truly speaking NOW because a couple of members cried foul on an obviously innocent discussion between Shade and I and also speaking to anyone that is too self important to respect others time and MAYBE do a search once in a while or read a book. Your also very right guy, you normally dont see me post anything unless I give out factual answers to warranted questions. So if it is a warrant less question I do remain quiet holmes and let others waste their time.
I was an active participant and still am, that’s why I asked Shade and anyone else who will happily answer without attitude, a question regarding the OP’s subject.
You would know that if you looked before yapping.
Yes, you gave an answer. But you didn’t stop there, did you? You felt it necessary to express your superiority over newbies. It sounds like when you first started, you asked a bunch of a holes questions and now you think that is the way to respond to others. Break the cycle of a-holes!!!
What are you on dude? Where did I do all this holmes show me! As nothing written in the thread before you came on your rant beat the guy up, told him he was stupid, nothing of the sort cmon now bad day at work or what this is not the place for your aggression mate!
[quote=“Sooner49er”]I fly sparge and the instructions to most of the kits I have done say to sparge with 170 water. I take that to mean that the water I sparge with should be 170 and not the grain. Is that right?[/quote]If you make sure that your sparge water will not drive the mash pH up, you can sparge with hotter water and do a real mashout. There’s some debate over the value of a mashout, though, and since an attenuative wort is what I want for just about every beer I make, I never worry about a mashout anyway, so if I was fly-sparging I would probably use 170-175F to limit the possibility of excess tannins (and I would treat my sparge water since Austin tap water is pH10).
A point no one has mentioned is the drop in temperature from the sparge tank through the hose and sparge arm onto the grain bed which can be 20-25 degrees. So the 170 in the sparge tank is 145 or so by the time it hits the grain bed. If your sparge water started at 195 it would be close to 170 by the time it hits the grains.
Next time you brew put a thermomoter on top of the grain bed and check the temp. I was surprized at the large drop when I did.
Dry hopped with irony.
ITsPossible, please understand that you have in no way offended me. Also, I’m replying directly because I made the “berated” comment. Maybe that is a little extreme; however, imo you tend to provide heavy-handed insights into proper decorum almost as much as you do into brewing. It’s not the most encouraging approach, and in some cases implicitly assumes that people haven’t already tried to understand. This isn’t to say you aren’t helpful and that your insights aren’t appreciated, it’s just an observation about your style.
I realize that may seem like a slight, but I don’t mean it that way. I honestly think we’re coming from the same place in some respects (just looking for some fun, respectful, informative conversations about brewing).
In the interest of not completely ruining w18288’s thread, I’ll send any further replies about this via PM.
Sorry w18288!
You have a right to your opinion Icky and I could care less what your perceived observations about me are. The fact that you would even try to analyze someone over the web or glean insight about me is charming and telling. Also eventually you will see the fact is you and others today jumped on a horse that simply wasn’t there and made up your own perceived threats to all that is noobie. It was a innocent conversation not innately direct towards anyone but the true trolls on the board that are not here out of respect for the community or themselves for that matter is who the topic touched on but was never extrapolated in any way towards anyone unless you felt personal about such a innocent thing which you all did.
And also to my disposition, I have said it before but if “”(indicating anyone that needs hand holding or coddling as a grown adult) instead of the facts or hard truth about a topic feels hurt well boo hoo this is not kindergarten folks its an adult forum about adult beverages. So what if you did a method completely wrong, I have not in the past nor will I in the future tell you your a snook or make a scene out of an innocent mistake, everyone including myself makes or will make. Its a hobby for cripes sake. But IF I choose to assist in the correct answer I will bring the right way next time to light and am not here to shock and awe just lay it out there without sugarcoating everything. If you call that whatever you decide to say about my character well you go as you are obviously the better man for making any snide comment about ones person which I see as not so cutesy and hold the premise that you said it therefore it is an attack towards me personally which is truly against forum policy and is truly shocking as I directed no ill will towards anyone personally in this whole thread. Then so be it. In the future If you think my reply is not to your liking, ignore it chief/s.
A point no one has mentioned is the drop in temperature from the sparge tank through the hose and sparge arm onto the grain bed which can be 20-25 degrees. So the 170 in the sparge tank is 145 or so by the time it hits the grain bed. If your sparge water started at 195 it would be close to 170 by the time it hits the grains.
Next time you brew put a thermomoter on top of the grain bed and check the temp. I was surprized at the large drop when I did.[/quote]
That was part of my question, so thanks for answering. Like the strike water, the sparge water temperature should be above the target in order to account for heat loss from the HLT, hoses and sparge arm. My water has been 170 in the pot and therefore 10-20 less when it rinses the grains.
Could this in any way affect effeciency? I know it would not be the first thing to check for regarding effeciency and there are other threads for that, but just curious how a lower sparge temperature could affect the wort.
On a related note, is the importance of sparge temperature significantly reduced if one performs a mash out? Meaning, if you mash out, can you sparge at just about any temperature, so long as the grain bed never exceeds ~170? Or, is it still best to target 170 when sparging?
Also, when batch sparging, is there a difference as far as denaturing enzymes if you hit 170 in the kettle as opposed to in the tun?
Finally, if you let wort sit in the kettle at, say, 150 degrees for an hour, are there enough enzymes to continue breaking down the starches?
[quote=“ITsPossible”]You have a right to your opinion Icky and I could care less what your perceived observations about me are. The fact that you would even try to analyze someone over the web or glean insight about me is charming and telling. Also eventually you will see the fact is you and others today jumped on a horse that simply wasn’t there and made up your own perceived threats to all that is noobie. It was a innocent conversation not innately direct towards anyone but the true trolls on the board that are not here out of respect for the community or themselves for that matter is who the topic touched on but was never extrapolated in any way towards anyone unless you felt personal about such a innocent thing which you all did.
And also to my disposition, I have said it before but if “”(indicating anyone that needs hand holding or coddling as a grown adult) instead of the facts or hard truth about a topic feels hurt well boo hoo this is not kindergarten folks its an adult forum about adult beverages. So what if you did a method completely wrong, I have not in the past nor will I in the future tell you your a snook or make a scene out of an innocent mistake, everyone including myself makes or will make. Its a hobby for cripes sake. But IF I choose to assist in the correct answer I will bring the right way next time to light and am not here to shock and awe just lay it out there without sugarcoating everything. If you call that whatever you decide to say about my character well you go as you are obviously the better man for making any snide comment about ones person which I see as not so cutesy and hold the premise that you said it therefore it is an attack towards me personally which is truly against forum policy and is truly shocking as I directed no ill will towards anyone personally in this whole thread. Then so be it. In the future If you think my reply is not to your liking, ignore it chief/s.[/quote]
If you find a question on this forum (which is for ASKING QUESTIONS) not to your liking, how about you ignore it, chief!
The OP asked a question. He was getting answers but you had to give him a hard time for asking the question. I just can’t get past that FACT. This is a forum where home brewers come to ask questions. Some are newer to the hobby than others. Those who aren’t new come here to help others out. If you don’t want to help out or don’t like someones question, then don’t answer it. It’s really that simple. This isn’t the first time I’ve seen you respond to someone harshly with a question.
[quote=“ickyfoot”]1.[quote]just curious how a lower sparge temperature could affect the wort.[/quote]2…is the importance of sparge temperature significantly reduced if one performs a mash out? 3…when batch sparging, is there a difference as far as denaturing enzymes if you hit 170 in the kettle as opposed to in the tun? 4…if you let wort sit in the kettle at, say, 150 degrees for an hour, are there enough enzymes to continue breaking down the starches?[/quote]1. You can sparge with room temp water and it will have no negative impact on the efficiency or extraction (Kai did some work to prove this).
2. See 1.
3. and 4. The enyzmes will continue to break down complex starches as a function of time, so letting the wort sit for an hour at conversion temps will have some impact on the fermentability. Taken to the extreme, like with an overnight mash, you can produce a very fermentable wort (makes a great Belgian!)
Thanks, that makes sense. So that’s probably working in conjunction with mashing in the upper 140s to consistently give me attenuation in the mid - upper 80%s (it’s usually more like 20 - 30 minutes, but still)? Now that my efficiency is fairly consistent (~80%), I’m gonna work on fermentability. To achieve this, should I mash warmer and maybe start heating the wort as soon as first runnings are in the kettle?
My dubbel, with an OG of ~1.074, finished at 1.008, turning it into a dark strong with an ABV of 8.4% :shock: ! Adding candi syrup after initial active fermentation probably contributed, but all my brews have been going that low lately.
[quote=“ickyfoot”]…I’m gonna work on fermentability. To achieve this, should I mash warmer and maybe start heating the wort as soon as first runnings are in the kettle?[/quote]You want to make your wort less fermentable? Then mash higher (like 155-158) and/or use more crystal malt or oats.
Oh, heh, I guess I left out some details.
By “work on fermentability,” I meant I would like to increase predictability of my FGs (e.g., reliably target ~1.015 or ~1.008, although my sense is that the ability to precisely target an FG is somewhat limited).
I haven’t been getting 80%+ attenuation on purpose, and it’s occassionally resulting in beers stronger than I prefer, so, yes, the immediate goal is to decrease fermentability.
Thanks again!
[quote=“ickyfoot”]although my sense is that the ability to precisely target an FG is somewhat limited.[/quote]Consistent wort production, yeast handling, and fermentation conditions will result in a consistent FG, but it takes a lot of practice and experience to nail it down (which is a good thing, because it also requires a lot of sampling!).
Yeah, I’m way down with constantly learning about and refining the process and especially sampling the end product!
:cheers:
Not necessarily. Experiment a bit, starting with 170 water. If that gets your grainbed to 170, then it’s right. If not, adjust the water temp accordingly to get you to a 170F grainbed.
It’s unlikely that it would effect efficiency and if it did it would be a vrey small effect. There’s some evidence that hotter sparges tend to solubulize any unconverted starches and make them available for conversion, but my experience is that the potential efficiency gain isn’t more than a point or 2. Kai Troester did an experiment sparging with room temp water and found no drop in efficiency form it.
On a related note, is the importance of sparge temperature significantly reduced if one performs a mash out? Meaning, if you mash out, can you sparge at just about any temperature, so long as the grain bed never exceeds ~170? Or, is it still best to target 170 when sparging?[/quote]
A mashout will make no difference in that regard.
Also, when batch sparging, is there a difference as far as denaturing enzymes if you hit 170 in the kettle as opposed to in the tun? [/quote]
Nope. One of the beauties in batch sparging is that you get to a boil so much more quickly than in fly sparging that a mashout for batch spargers is pretty much pointless.
Yes, that can happen.
