-we did use these pyrex cups and pipettes to try the different blends
-I think I can tell the difference between lactic sourness and acetic (and for the record, I do taste what I think is acetic character in Petrus, Rodenbach, and even Duchesse)
-We were going for Flanders Red in all of these (no oude bruins)
-They were all aged with airlocks
-the two on the right had very little acetic character - they were roseleare straight, and one had Jolly Pumpkin dregs (if I am correctly identifying it - see below)
-One thing we LIKED about the oaked version (left, also had oude boon dregs): it had both an ‘upfront’ sourness and a slight ‘back-end’ sourness. I am guessing the tang at the END of the taste is the acetic acid. I know this because I occasionally have a tablespoon of vinegar to help with acid reflux (it works for some people, most importantly, me), and when you first taste vinegar, it tastes fine, then the heavy acid comes later (and I slam a glass of water).
-Not saying it is the be-all/end-all, but the comments in the BJCP guidelines for Flanders say that it is traditionally more acetic than Oude Bruin
-Either way, we have 10 gallons of really good beer once it is blended.
-I am leaning toward a framboise for the third carboy[/quote]
Yes acetic is harsh as you describe, BJCP does say a flanders is more acetic than oude bruin yes, but neither of them should have a dominating acetic character. It should be minimal in flanders, you will start to get dinged in comps if it is to high.
Rodenbach Grand Cru is pretty acetic, along with La Folie. Those two are probably the highest acetic bombs out there.
I would say a good example of something that is not an acetic bomb is Jester Kings those are very nice and a brewery that dumps their acetic beers.
It has been a while since I have had Petrus but wasn’t much of a fan, I would have to revisit that beer. It has been probably 5 years or so.
Douchesse is way to cloying in my taste, I do not enjoy backsweetened stuff at all, and don’t think those beer should be. They are sweet sugar bombs, I don’t even get much sourness out of it.
Your glass one was probably the least acetic due to a little better oxygen permeability, unless to much sampling was done?
Meh, don’t waste your time or money with Petrus. I also am not a huge fan (largely because it is not tart enough). Also ,its a oude bruin, so probably not overly relevant to this discussion. Duchesse is not authentic, but I like it for what it is: a good way to get people introduced to sours. But I agree, all I can taste now is asparteme or whatever the H they use.
The glass one had the most complex sourness, so I was thinking it was more acetic than the others (maybe because of the wood chips and Oude Boon?) Also because it had the tang at the end along with the beginning…
So is my thinking on track for acetic vs. lactic (beginning of the taste vs. the end of the taste)?
[quote=“Pietro”]Meh, don’t waste your time or money with Petrus. I also am not a huge fan (largely because it is not tart enough). Also ,its a oude bruin, so probably not overly relevant. Duchesse is not authentic, but I like it for what it is: a good way to get people introduced to sours. But I agree, all I can taste now is asparteme or whatever the H they use.
The glass one had the most complex sourness, so I was thinking it was more acetic than the others (maybe because of the wood chips and Oude Boon?) Also because it had the tang at the end along with the beginning…
So is my thinking on track for acetic vs. lactic (beginning of the taste vs. the end of the taste)?[/quote]
Wood chips are not going to do anything for sourness, one bottle of dregs is not going to make much of a huge difference either. I usually have multiple bottle dregs in 1 sour, that now has evolved into my own house wild yeast over the years of brewing sours.
Over sampling can introduce a lot of oxygen to a beer, if those were left to sit the glass should have less oxygen introduced than the BB overtime. Different bungs let in different amount of oxygen to though.
“s” shaped airlock work both ways more suck back with temp swings?
For acetic vs lactic…think yogurt vs vinegar or go get a good berliner weisse and compare it to rodenbach or la folie. You will notice a big difference (well you may not… some peoples palletes just can’t tell the difference)
The Petrus Aged pale is an exceptional sour beer. Not the Oude Bruin. It is, if there is such a thing, a Flanders Pale. Much of the same wood/lactic character of the classic reds, only pale in color. Really interesting beer and widely available at a reasonable price.
Packaged 5 gallons of this in a keg (now deliciously carbed and hooked up to my brewing partners system several miles away)and five gallons into 750ml bottles and a few bombers, couple12 oz, reyeasted with a pack of champagne yeast and dissolved priming sugar, which i have.
Of course, chilled one of the 12 oz bottles in the freezer last night, cracked, and absolutely no ‘psst’. We packaged 3 weeks ago today, stored at 68* to condition. Opened and resealed a 750, and noticed a SLIGHT psst, but not much. The crowns aren’t spinning , so seals seem good. There is visible yeast on the bottom. Brought the bottles from my 55-60 basement (they’ve been down there about a week) back up to my 65* first floor, shook them up, and I do notice some bubbles.
Do sours / champagne yeast take longer to carb? Thinking i may have to dump these gently into a keg and force carb.
[quote=“Pietro”]Packaged 5 gallons of this in a keg (now deliciously carbed and hooked up to my brewing partners system several miles away)and five gallons into 750ml bottles and a few bombers, couple12 oz, reyeasted with a pack of champagne yeast and dissolved priming sugar, which i have.
Of course, chilled one of the 12 oz bottles in the freezer last night, cracked, and absolutely no ‘psst’. We packaged 3 weeks ago today, stored at 68* to condition. Opened and resealed a 750, and noticed a SLIGHT psst, but not much. The crowns aren’t spinning , so seals seem good. There is visible yeast on the bottom. Brought the bottles from my 55-60 basement (they’ve been down there about a week) back up to my 65* first floor, shook them up, and I do notice some bubbles.
Do sours / champagne yeast take longer to carb? Thinking i may have to dump these gently into a keg and force carb.[/quote]
Yes they take longer. You may also go through a sick phase or more off flavors phase.
You may be waiting a few months to a year.
[quote=“grainbelt”][quote=“Pietro”]Packaged 5 gallons of this in a keg (now deliciously carbed and hooked up to my brewing partners system several miles away)and five gallons into 750ml bottles and a few bombers, couple12 oz, reyeasted with a pack of champagne yeast and dissolved priming sugar, which i have.
Of course, chilled one of the 12 oz bottles in the freezer last night, cracked, and absolutely no ‘psst’. We packaged 3 weeks ago today, stored at 68* to condition. Opened and resealed a 750, and noticed a SLIGHT psst, but not much. The crowns aren’t spinning , so seals seem good. There is visible yeast on the bottom. Brought the bottles from my 55-60 basement (they’ve been down there about a week) back up to my 65* first floor, shook them up, and I do notice some bubbles.
Do sours / champagne yeast take longer to carb? Thinking i may have to dump these gently into a keg and force carb.[/quote]
Yes they take longer. You may also go through a sick phase or more off flavors phase.
You may be waiting a few months to a year.[/quote]
K, thanks gb. Isn’t the “sick” phase only if Brett is the dominant yeast(which it usually is)? Forgot to mention, we treated with Camden to knock out Brett and others before using the champ yeast.
We will be bottling some for me off the keg :mrgreen:
[quote=“Pietro”][quote=“grainbelt”][quote=“Pietro”]Packaged 5 gallons of this in a keg (now deliciously carbed and hooked up to my brewing partners system several miles away)and five gallons into 750ml bottles and a few bombers, couple12 oz, reyeasted with a pack of champagne yeast and dissolved priming sugar, which i have.
Of course, chilled one of the 12 oz bottles in the freezer last night, cracked, and absolutely no ‘psst’. We packaged 3 weeks ago today, stored at 68* to condition. Opened and resealed a 750, and noticed a SLIGHT psst, but not much. The crowns aren’t spinning , so seals seem good. There is visible yeast on the bottom. Brought the bottles from my 55-60 basement (they’ve been down there about a week) back up to my 65* first floor, shook them up, and I do notice some bubbles.
Do sours / champagne yeast take longer to carb? Thinking i may have to dump these gently into a keg and force carb.[/quote]
Yes they take longer. You may also go through a sick phase or more off flavors phase.
You may be waiting a few months to a year.[/
K, thanks gb. Isn’t the “sick” phase only if Brett is the dominant yeast(which it usually is)? Forgot to mention, we treated with Camden to knock out Brett and others before using the champ yeast.
We will be bottling some for me off the keg :mrgreen: [/quote][/quote]
Not sure why you would want add campden.
Sick and different off flavors are two different things.
I may be wrong but the sick phase I thought was pedio. When I say sick I mean the ropy viscous snot like viscosity
I don’t always get sick ones but I always get some strange off flavors for a while until Brett cleans then up.
Added the Camden to knock out everything except the champ yeast and essentially stabilize the flavor since it is where we want it. U may be right about Pedio, but we thought the cold crash and Camden would knock that out too.
My understanding is that Camden will shock existing suspended yeast out of solution, whereas potassium sorbate will inhibit ANY yeast growth. Our goal was to knock out the cocktail of bugs/yeast in there, so we would only get carb from the champ yeast (one of mad fermentationists recommended methods). The beer was also probably 45-50* when we bottled as well, so maybe the yeast (at room temp) was shocked out of suspension?
As to the why, we knew we were sacrificing some evolution of flavor as it aged, but we were really happy with both beers individually and even happier with the blend as it is. The kegged beer tastes perfect. If the bottle conditioned bottles just esterify a little bit as they age, we will be happy. What we were really trying to avoid was having Brett and Pedio eat the bottle priming sugar, to avoid the sick period and instability of the current flavor. Because it’s effing delicious.
[quote=“Pietro”]My understanding is that Camden will shock existing suspended yeast out of solution, whereas potassium sorbate will inhibit ANY yeast growth. Our goal was to knock out the cocktail of bugs/yeast in there, so we would only get carb from the champ yeast (one of mad fermentationists recommended methods). The beer was also probably 45-50* when we bottled as well, so maybe the yeast (at room temp) was shocked out of suspension?
As to the why, we knew we were sacrificing some evolution of flavor as it aged, but we were really happy with both beers individually and even happier with the blend as it is. The kegged beer tastes perfect. If the bottle conditioned bottles just esterify a little bit as they age, we will be happy. What we were really trying to avoid was having Brett and Pedio eat the bottle priming sugar, to avoid the sick period and instability of the current flavor. Because it’s effing delicious.[/quote]
Sounds like to much to mess with IMO for something that is only going to get better and that is over a long slow period.
Never bothered with campden for that reason and not sure of times and process you did.
I have never seen any write up on mikes blog about doing campden
You think killed or sleepy/rousable? It’s weird, when I agitate them now, there a lots of little bubbles suspended throughout. May crack another just to see.
