Pseudo Pilsner

sclinchy · January 30, 2014, 12:56am

My wife and I, for that matter) really like clean, pilsner type lagers. I don’t have refrigeration (yet), so I’m thinking about trying to do a sort of a pilsner with the California Common yeast. I have a swamp cooler, so I can reliably ferment in the mid sixties, but obviously any real lagering ain’t gonna happen.

Has anybody tried this? Any idea how this might come out?

Recipe would be something like:

5 gallons
10 lbs Pilsner
.75 lbs Carapils

3/4 oz, Magnum at 60
1/2 oz. Saaz at 30
3/4 oz Saaz at flame out

Wyeast 2112

Mash at 150 for 90 minutes
90 minute boil.

Thanks!

hans_caravan · January 30, 2014, 1:27am

Why the 90 minute mash?

ken_lenard · January 30, 2014, 1:27am

If you use the 2112 or 810, I would try to drop that sucker in a large tub and add some frozen water bottles to it and get it closer to 58° or so. If you could, I think you would be happy with the beer. If not, the west coast lager yeast likes to get a little estery… possibly too estery for beer drinkers than enjoy cleaner beer. If you can’t get it that cool, I would just use 1056 and try to ferment it between 60 and maybe 62°. Use soft water. Use Noble hops. Get the pH of the mash in the 5.2 to 5.4 range. This would be more of a blonde ale but I think you could make it work nicely if everything was done right. I have a tendency to add “german” ingredients to ales (munich or Vienna, noble hops, etc) so my blonde ales occasionally look like a pilsner made with ale yeast. It’s possible and you can definitely do it. Cheers.

loopie_beer · January 30, 2014, 1:48am

Or try fermenting in low 60s with wyeast 1007 or 2565.

ken_lenard · January 30, 2014, 2:05am

Is Charlottesville cool right now? Oh, everywhere is cool right now, I forgot. But having a basement in the winter plus a plastic tub that you can fill with cold water and possible frozen plastic bottles could really help. I used to make lagers that way but now I make ales that way. Loopie, I think a beer like that fermented with 2565 or 1007 would be dynamite. I can’t remember the low end of the fermenting temp range on those but it’s pretty cool, right? Maybe mid 50s? The OP said he liked ‘clean, pilsner-type lagers’ which is such a tough one because part of the character and flavor profile comes from the yeast and if that’s what the OP likes in the beer, no ale yeast will be able to do that, unfortunately.

sclinchy · January 30, 2014, 2:41am

Thanks!

Yes, I have the tub and the frozen bottles, so I think I can the the fermentation down to mid sixties, maybe not 62, but close.

The 90 minute mash is recommended for pilsner malt, at the low mash temp, if I can get by with 60, that would be great!

ken_lenard · January 30, 2014, 2:58am

[quote=“sclinchy”]Thanks!

Yes, I have the tub and the frozen bottles, so I think I can the the fermentation down to mid sixties, maybe not 62, but close.

The 90 minute mash is recommended for pilsner malt, at the low mash temp, if I can get by with 60, that would be great![/quote]
My opinion is that 1056 will make you a better “clean” beer at those temps than the steam/west coast lager yeast. I know it seems like that yeast would be better but I tried it at warmer temps and did not care for the esters I was getting from it. I have tried it over and over where I make a nice Anchor Steam-like beer with Northern Brewer hops and 2112 and ferment it around 56-58° and it’s outstanding. Then I make a blonde or a red ale/lager that ferments around 62° or so and it’s just not as good. I do ferment ales with 1056 around 60-62° and it’s very clean and smooth. Good luck and let us know how it comes out!

denny · January 30, 2014, 4:31pm

IMO, 2565 is not a good yeast for a pseudo pils…too “winey” flavored. 1007, OToh, is a great choice. Way better than 2112 IMO.

brew_meister_smith · January 30, 2014, 4:43pm

I have actually had pretty decent results with 2007 at above true lager temps. Not sure how everyone feels about this one - I’m pretty sure it is Budweiser’s yeast - but I have found it to produce very clean beer in the temperature range we are talking about.

pietro · January 30, 2014, 5:06pm

[quote=“sclinchy”]
The 90 minute mash is recommended for pilsner malt, at the low mash temp, if I can get by with 60, that would be great![/quote]

Are you sure you’re not thinking of a 90-minute boil to knock out DMS? Today’s pilsner malts should convert in 60, even at a 148 mash temp.

As far as your beer profile objective, I think its possible, but as others have said, the closer you can get to 60*, at least for the first 2-3 days of fermentation, the better.

I make a faux pils with US-05, fermented at 60* for the first 3 days, then basically bring the fermenter somewhere where the ambient temp is around 66 and let it go for a week or so. Its probably the best beer I brew consistently.

I would drop the carapils to around .25lb-.5lb MAXIMUM though. Get it nice and dry if you like clean lagers.

ken_lenard · January 30, 2014, 5:11pm

[quote=“Pietro”][quote=“sclinchy”]
The 90 minute mash is recommended for pilsner malt, at the low mash temp, if I can get by with 60, that would be great![/quote]

Are you sure you’re not thinking of a 90-minute boil to knock out DMS? Today’s pilsner malts should convert in 60, even at a 148 mash temp.

As far as your beer profile objective, I think its possible, but as others have said, the closer you can get to 60*, at least for the first 2-3 days of fermentation, the better.

I make a faux pils with US-05, fermented at 60* for the first 3 days, then basically bring the fermenter somewhere where the ambient temp is around 66 and let it go for a week or so. Its probably the best beer I brew consistently.

I would drop the carapils to around .25lb-.5lb MAXIMUM though. Get it nice and dry if you like clean lagers.[/quote]
I was going to mention US05 but I could swear that the one time I tried to ferment it cool it threw off some sort of peachy-mango-like ester. It wasn’t necessarily objectionable but I wasn’t expecting it so I was surprised by it. It does attenuate like a MOFO so if a dry beer is the goal, I like the thought of US05 but that fruity ester at low temps would make me hesitate. Btw, I have heard of longer mashes with pilsner malt (longer boils too) and my guess is that with today’s well-modified malts, it’s not necessary. I mash & boil for 60 minutes when I have a pilsner malt beer… no issues.

pietro · January 30, 2014, 6:09pm

It may be a mind-over-matter/front-of-mind thing, but I started perceiving the peach/stonefruit ester in this beer that I make after I read about the peach ester from s-05. However, since it is a very simple beer with Saaz thoroughout and clean malts, the profile works and is appealing to a wide range of lager drinkers and aleheads alike. Just typing about it makes me want one. :mrgreen:

sclinchy · January 30, 2014, 9:23pm

Thanks everybody for your comments, there’s a lot of good stuff here.

I’m leaning towards trying the 1007 (when Denny speaks, I listen), taking the advice on reducing the Carapils and using a 60 minute mash.

We’ll see how it goes!

ken_lenard · January 30, 2014, 10:10pm

[quote=“sclinchy”]Thanks everybody for your comments, there’s a lot of good stuff here.

I’m leaning towards trying the 1007 (when Denny speaks, I listen), taking the advice on reducing the Carapils and using a 60 minute mash.

We’ll see how it goes![/quote]
1007 is a very nice yeast. Maybe not quite as neutral as some but certainly leaning that way. It can ferment cool (I forget how cool) and it will be more neutral the closer you get to the lower end of the temp spectrum. Also, don’t let the idea that it’s a low-floccer bother you. I have made some very nice beers with 1007 that dropped crystal clear. An Altbier w/1007…

EDIT: Wyeast 1007 German ale yeast can go down to 55°. The high end is 68°. Cheers and good luck with the beer.

loopie_beer · January 30, 2014, 11:47pm

[quote=“sclinchy”]Thanks everybody for your comments, there’s a lot of good stuff here.

I’m leaning towards trying the 1007 (when Denny speaks, I listen), taking the advice on reducing the Carapils and using a 60 minute mash.

We’ll see how it goes![/quote]
Apparently he missed my post or I’m a ZERO…

ken_lenard · January 31, 2014, 2:33am

[quote=“Loopie Beer”][quote=“sclinchy”]Thanks everybody for your comments, there’s a lot of good stuff here.

I’m leaning towards trying the 1007 (when Denny speaks, I listen), taking the advice on reducing the Carapils and using a 60 minute mash.

We’ll see how it goes![/quote]
Apparently he missed my post or I’m a ZERO…[/quote]
Aw, man. You’re in Denny’s shadow. :cheers:

loopie_beer · January 31, 2014, 3:01am

Thanks Ken! BUT, we all do love Denny! :cheers:

ken_lenard · January 31, 2014, 3:08am

Of course! C’mon Denny, grab a glass and get in here!

:cheers:

sonex · January 31, 2014, 11:58pm

I guess I’m old school mashing under 150 f I’ll mash for 90 minutes to get full conversion, and with pils malt boil for 90 minutes to drive off dms.

rookie_l_a · February 1, 2014, 4:10pm

[quote=“sclinchy”]My wife and I, for that matter) really like clean, pilsner type lagers. I don’t have refrigeration (yet), so I’m thinking about trying to do a sort of a pilsner with the California Common yeast. I have a swamp cooler, so I can reliably ferment in the mid sixties, but obviously any real lagering ain’t gonna happen.
Thanks![/quote]

You can lager in the bottle. Ferment as low as you can with a clean yeast, bottle after three weeks, then put the bottles in the fridge after they’ve carbed and wait a month.