2 different things. What are you trying to accomplish?
According to Kai, it’s becasue the higher temp solubulizes more starches ad makes them available for conversion.
Optimized conversion and pre-boil efficiency (e.g., maximized gravity of pre-boil volume for a given grain bill).
Maybe a conversion rating (highest to lowest) of the following three scenarios would be easiest/more clear:
- Single infusion mash (50%) + sparge (50%)
- Beta and alpha rest mash (55 - 60%) + sparge (40 - 45%)
- mash + mashout (55 - 60%) + sparge (40 - 45%)
Where the %s are the amount of pre-boil volume collected from a single run off. It sounds like 2 or 3 might be optimal, but if so, is it enough to warrant the extra effort?
I suppose a corollary is, if I mash in low by accident and leave it (basically, roll with beta conversion/more fermentable wort), will stepping up to an alpha rest for 10 or 15 minutes help ensure the beer isn’t too thin and doesn’t get too dry? What about stepping up to a mash out for 10 minutes? Finally, if I don’t mash out, but don’t start the boil for, say, 2 hours after sparging, do I have to worry about continued enzyme activity?
Maybe the best way to answer is to tell you what I do. 99% of the time, I do a mash with about 1.6 qt./lb. Whatever else I need to hit boil volume I add at about 190-200F. And it’s just that easy. I average 85% efficiency like that, although a lot of that comes from a very fine crush. Really, your 3 options are going to make very little difference.
Right on.
Meaning, for the sparge, or as a second infusion?
I’m getting pretty good crush now with the monster mill, and have hit ~80% two times in a row. Really glad I got that thing! I could probably go a little finer, but things get really slow when I get to the end of the run off. In fact, if I let it sit for an hour, it will still back fill the hose if I close the ball valve. Part of me wonders if this is just the grain bed slowly releasing water it absorbed during the mash? The bulk of the volume drains really fast once I’ve vorlaufed, so I kinda wonder if I’m being too anal about completely draining the tun before sparging.
[quote=“ickyfoot”]Right on.
Meaning, for the sparge, or as a second infusion?
I’m getting pretty good crush now with the monster mill, and have hit ~80% two times in a row. Really glad I got that thing! I could probably go a little finer, but things get really slow when I get to the end of the run off. In fact, if I let it sit for an hour, it will still back fill the hose if I close the ball valve. Part of me wonders if this is just the grain bed slowly releasing water it absorbed during the mash? The bulk of the volume drains really fast once I’ve vorlaufed, so I kinda wonder if I’m being too anal about completely draining the tun before sparging.[/quote]
For the sparge. Don’t worry too much about the mash runoff draining completely. Anything left will come out during the sparge. I get almost everything out of the tun during the sparge runoff. If I let it continue to drain I may get another couple cups. I usually don’t worry about it.
OK, yeah, that’s about the same level of residual run off that I get. I’ve taken to letting it drain throughout the boil and adding anything that collects until the tun is empty or there are 20 mins left on the boil, whichever comes first.
Maybe I’ll crank the grinder a little tighter next time since the bulk of the run off goes very quickly (i.e., doesn’t sound like I have anything close to a stuck run off). I’ll also revert to a single infusion + sparge and see if I maintain 80%+. At that level of efficiency, I prefer the ease of single infusion to an additional 1 - 3% here or there.
With single infusion, my understanding is I just mash a little higher for more body/sweetness, a little lower for the opposite. Yes? If so, do separate beta and alpha rests significantly improve control in this regard, or is it again more of a fine-tuning sort of deal?
Isn’t it alphas operating at the higher temps, and turning out more unfermentables?[/quote]
Just testing you. Way to go!
Yep, you’ve got it. I haven’t found a step mash with separate beta and alpha rests to produce a better beer. I still do it sometimes to see if I’m missing something, but so far I pretty much stick with single infusion.
Yep, you’ve got it. I haven’t found a step mash with separate beta and alpha rests to produce a better beer. I still do it sometimes to see if I’m missing something, but so far I pretty much stick with single infusion.[/quote]
I’m glad to hear this from you, Denny. I’ve been doing mostly single infusions and my beers come out well… well, most of the time. I tried a few step mashes and have noticed no difference at all. I did one for a wheat beer that I’ve made for my wife several times and neither her nor I could detect any difference. Some people swear by them, but I just can’t tell a difference in the final product… if there even is one.
[quote=“tom sawyer”][quote=“Slothrob”][quote=“tom sawyer”]
I also get similar efficiencies with no sparge, or using a very small sparge. I know that the no sparge should give you 85% since you can start with 3.5qt/lb and 0.5qt/lb (=0.125gal/lb) stays in the grain. I seem to get in the range of 75% no matter what I do. I guess those extractions that favor increased efficiency must have a negative effect on conversion.[/quote]
You are leaving out the volume added by the dissolved sugar in your calculation. For mashes I’ve calculated this for, ~75% is the maximum efficiency you can get from a no sparge mash of a moderate gravity beer.[/quote]Strictly speaking though, using 3qt/lb and leaving 0.5qt/lb in the grain should give you 83% efficiency. Somehow I always manage to ge around 75%, there must be competing factors that lower conversion when the extraction goes up.[/quote]
Again, you are leaving out the volume contribution of the dissolved sugar. 0.5 qt/# is you apparent water absorption, but due to the volume increase caused by the dissolved sugars, the real absorption is greater. That is why you won’t achieve your theoretical target unless you squeeze wort from the grain.
^^^ yep. Dissolved extract adds 0.63 l/kg, or .303 qt/lb. Your grain is not 100% extract, so this needs to be corrected for the extract potential of the grain (36 point*gal/lb ~= 78% extract by weight).
OK so the grain actually absorbs 0.8qt/lb but the sugar increases volume 0.3qt/lb. How does that affect the calculation of efficiency though? Seems like the ratio would remain the same.
3 qt/3.8 qt (79% max possible efficiency) instead of 3 qt/3.5 qt. (86% max possible efficiency).
That means that your 75% is accountable by 95% conversion, ignoring system losses and grain lot variability, which is quite respectable.
I’ve often wondered why my efficiency calcs didn’t quite add up as far as the amount of sugar in the pot. I still need to work through this a little more, but thanks for the heads up. I don’t think I quite appreciated how the volume increase affected efficiency even though I’ve been told before about the need to include this.
Great thread. I’m new to homebrewing but always want to do things “right.” Please let me know if my process will approximate this? I have only a 5 Gallon kettle and a 2 gallon that’s just our dinner pot. So if “whatever else I need to hit boil volume” exceeds 2 gallons I need a third pot. Pain.
So What I do based on other threads is:
Infuse at 1.25 Qt/Gallon but I will try 1.6. Makes my life easier.
Wait approx 60 minutes then ADD additional H20 at 168 (will try 175) to top off to approximately half my boil. Wait additional 10 minutes.
Drain wort into BK.
Add approx. 2 Gallon to Cooler Tun to get around 4 total gallons for boil. Rest 10 minutes. Should I add this at about 190-200 degrees? I typically mash anywhere from 4- 6 # in a 5 Gallon round cooler. I reckon I could do more.
Looks good, except you don’t need to wit 10 min. after adding your sparge water. Just stir it in, recirculate til clear, and runoff.
Thanks. Will try that. I figured slowly lifting out the paint strainer bag had a small vorlauf effect but anything to help with efficiency is cool by me. I use a free recipe software. My efficiency is currently set to 70%. Should i stick with that for the time being?
Might as well…
This has been a very helpful thread. Thanks all.
