Jamil's Flanders Red

pietro · May 28, 2013, 5:01pm

Has anyone brewed this?

Jamil essentially uses the two stage fermentation where he makes a pretty complex, dextrinous wort with pilsner malt, vienna, aromatic, munich, caramunich, wheat, etc, mashed at 158-59 so you don’t end up with a low FG. Ie the sacc yeast will finish out with the beer at a gravity in the low 20’s.

Then you pitch the roselare blend into a true secondary and ferment for a year. You supposedly get a hot, sexy pellicle and the bugs work it down the rest of the way.

I have read some feedback from The Mad Fermentationist that this method (2-stage) doesn’t get the beer NEARLY sour enough. However, Jamil insists that its very close to original Rodenbach, which I really like. Duchesse is my favorite FR that I’ve had (I believe they back-sweeten it a bit).

The other alternative is to pitch both the sacc yeast and the Roselare blend at the same time (which the Mad Fermentationist recommends).

Any thoughts?

tom_sawyer · May 28, 2013, 5:46pm

I believe the Roeselare already has a Sacch yeast so I think this is unncessary. I also think the Sacch yeast ferments faster than any of the other microorganisms so its not necessary to do this in stages, throw it all in at once and things will take turns naturally.

I’ve heard the blend doesn’t get really sour so I’ve always added some dregs from a good sour lambic from Drie Fontainein or Cantillon. I’ve had good luck using dregs to bump up the sourness of my wild brews. I think the bacteria probably survive better than the yeasts and by seeding the Roeselare with more bacteria you get the profile you are looking for. I’ve also heard you can use the Roeselare a second time and it is more sour, but who wnts to wait? Third, I’ve had good luck with the lambic blend, it will get sour in nine months. I prefer it to the Roeselare.

shadetree · May 28, 2013, 6:58pm

If you like Duchesse, I don’t think you’d want it any more sour than Roselaere pitched in primary. Let it go maybe nine months and pull a sample and if it’s not sour enough, pitch dregs from something more aggressive.

wahoo · May 28, 2013, 11:19pm

In my experience, the sourness of Roselare is GREATLY affected by oxygen levels.

I took a 5 gallon batch, fermented totally with Roselare. After a month, I put half in a 10L (small!) oak barrel… and the rest in a carboy. the carboy half was barely sour. The oaked half was HUGELY sour… I blended them together and am super happy with the results.

pietro · May 29, 2013, 1:34pm

yeah, I’m looking for a sour/tartness balanced with good malt character. Basically a well-made (asdie from the underattenuated aspect) base beer before I start messing with the bugs.

What I like about Duchesse is that it has faint/subtle barnyardy flavors without being overpowering…same with the sourness/acidity. What I don’t like about it is that it has saccharine. Blech.

Of course, like every sour beer nerd, after this one, I will likely want crazy over the top sourfunk craziness on my second batch. Would like to keep this one approachable though.

Also, re: oxygen, Jamil’s recipe suggests having the longer secondary in plastic/bucket, along with the oak cubes, so hopefully that will provide the oxygen it needs at a reasonable level to give me a good level of tart.

tom_sawyer · May 29, 2013, 2:03pm

You make a crazy sour/funky beer and you can blend with a dubbel and have something Flandersy.

pietro · May 29, 2013, 2:48pm

so basically, just primary with well-aerated wort and roselare, and it will be fully fermented. Then blend with a dubbel? That actually sounds awesome, though not sure if I want belgian phenolics in with my bug/sour flavors.

wahoo · May 30, 2013, 11:33am

[quote=“Pietro”]yeah, I’m looking for a sour/tartness balanced with good malt character. Basically a well-made (asdie from the underattenuated aspect) base beer before I start messing with the bugs.

What I like about Duchesse is that it has faint/subtle barnyardy flavors without being overpowering…same with the sourness/acidity. What I don’t like about it is that it has saccharine. Blech.

Of course, like every sour beer nerd, after this one, I will likely want crazy over the top sourfunk craziness on my second batch. Would like to keep this one approachable though.

Also, re: oxygen, Jamil’s recipe suggests having the longer secondary in plastic/bucket, along with the oak cubes, so hopefully that will provide the oxygen it needs at a reasonable level to give me a good level of tart.[/quote]

I guess my point above was that if you limit oxygen ingress, even without using a base yeast first, you won’t have an overly sour Roselare beer, in my opinion.

erockrph · May 30, 2013, 1:50pm

A big part of that sharp acidity you get in a Flanders Red comes from a bit of acetic acid. I have yet to brew a Flanders with Roselaire, but a lot of brewers seem to be of the opinion that it gets progessively more sour on repitching. I’m guessing that it tends to develop a more acetic character over time. I’m sure access to O2 helps speed this along as well.

pietro · May 31, 2013, 5:39pm

[quote=“Wahoo”][quote=“Pietro”]yeah, I’m looking for a sour/tartness balanced with good malt character. Basically a well-made (asdie from the underattenuated aspect) base beer before I start messing with the bugs.

What I like about Duchesse is that it has faint/subtle barnyardy flavors without being overpowering…same with the sourness/acidity. What I don’t like about it is that it has saccharine. Blech.

Of course, like every sour beer nerd, after this one, I will likely want crazy over the top sourfunk craziness on my second batch. Would like to keep this one approachable though.

Also, re: oxygen, Jamil’s recipe suggests having the longer secondary in plastic/bucket, along with the oak cubes, so hopefully that will provide the oxygen it needs at a reasonable level to give me a good level of tart.[/quote]

I guess my point above was that if you limit oxygen ingress, even without using a base yeast first, you won’t have an overly sour Roselare beer, in my opinion.[/quote]

I think that’s why Jamil does his true secondary in a plastic bucket, as its not totally impermeable like glass. Also, he adds an ounce of oak cubes, which I’m sure have some O2 within them.

The question is, does it make sense to pump a little bit of oxygen into the bucket when you transfer the partially fermented beer from your primary into the buggy secondary to give the bugs some life? Maybe even just splash a little when racking? Or will this just caused oxidized/cardboardy flavors?