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IPA Recipe, too much going on?

OK, I have a fairly specific hop profile in mind for this recipe, specifically, an aroma/flavor reminiscent of the Sierra backcountry. The goal is to induce a blast of piney and floral notes in the aroma and up front in the flavor, followed by a deep earthy, herbal flavor that’s kind of melded with the bitterness. I also want to get away from the citrusy flavors a bit. My concern is that I’ve picked hops that just won’t work well together and/or that it will just be a mish mash of indistinguishable flavors. Here’s the recipe:

Grain Bill
82% (10 lbs) 2-row
8% (1 lb) Wheat
8% (1 lb) Munich
2% (4 oz) C-60

Hops
FWH - 0.5 oz - Fuggles
FWH - 0.5 oz - Goldings
60 mins - 0.4 oz - Northern Brewer
60 mins - 0.3 oz - Chinook
20 mins - 0.4 oz - Simcoe
15 mins - 0.5 oz - Fuggles
15 mins - 0.5 oz - Goldings
10 mins - 0.25 oz - Fuggles
10 mins - 0.25 oz - Goldings
5 mins - 0.25 oz - Fuggles
5 mins - 0.25 oz - Goldings
DH - 0.5 oz - Chinook
DH - 1.0 oz - Northern Brewer
DH - 1.0 oz - Simcoe

Yeast
US-05

Misc
OG: 1.063 (75%)
IBU: 65.3
BU|GU: 1.04

Thoughts?

Looks pretty solid to me. Can’t say I’ve ever done that hop combo but it seems worth a shot. I’m doing a Pale Ale with a mix of hops just because the combo intrigues me; palisade, amarillo and citra. Have yet to figure out a way to tell if a combo is going to work other than to try it.

For my tastes, Fuggles as FWH is a loser. 1 lb. of Munich won’t really do much. I’d either increase it or lose it. I’d increase the C60. And probably get rid of the wheat malt. What’s the point of both Northern Brewer and Chinook for bittering? Do you have something in mind that you’re trying to achieve by doing that?

Thanks for the tip. I’m trying to go for something a little drier than c-60 without sacrificing too much maltiness. Do you think 2 lbs would be more effective (that’s all I have on hand). The wheat is for head retention and a more summery flavor.

The hope is that moderate kettle additions of DH hops will kind of tie in the aroma and early flavor with the late flavor and bitterness. I’m into this totally hypothetical idea of creating “hooks” that tie different flavor accents in to all stages of the flavor profile (so, e.g., strong piney aroma/early flavor will still be subtly present as the bitterness takes over at the end of the flavor profile, and a strong earthy bitterness in the aftertaste is maybe vaguely detectable up front). I have no idea if this is possible, or, if so, if I’m going about it the right way. It’s just something that I got in my head while playing around with hopville’s beer calculus.

I suppose the other question is, will 20 minutes of .4 oz Simcoe really add anything? My thinking is yes, since it’s American, and our hops seem to be more overt than British hops.

Yeah, 2 lb. of Munich would make more of a difference. I’d up the C60 to at least 1/2 lb. You can still make a perfectly dry beer with large amounts of crystal…Rogue does it as do other breweries. Especially since you’re using 05 for yeast. You could easily go up to a lb. of C60 without worries.

Sorry, I don’t grok what “DH hops” means…maybe I need more coffee. I think you’ll discover that your hop theory is off the mark. If you got the idea from Hopville, I’m afraid that’s another strike against Hopville AFAIAC. I’d move the Simcoe to 15 min. and skip the 20 min. addition. I’d also lose all the Fuggles and Goldings and sub in something else, but maybe that’s just me.

Sounds good re: c-60. Maybe I’ll drop the wheat, do 2 lbs of Munich and increase c-60 until I’m back at my target estimated OG.

DH = dry hop.

Right on. Fortunately, I first put it to use in a cascade/centennial/columbus IPA that will be ready before I brew this one, so I should hopefully have a sense if there’s anything to it whatsoever before trying it again. That also has an identical grain bill to this one, so I’ll have a chance to experience that first, too.

Re: Fuggle and Goldings, my impression is that they are more subtle, earthy/herbal hops, which is kind of what I’m going for. Kinda hoping that flavor will be tucked away beneath a piney/flowery American aroma/up front flavor. Do you have any suggestions for what I might sub in for those two to accomplish this?

I didn’t get the idea from hopville, it was just something that occurred to me to try while I was making up recipes on their site. But, it sounds like you’re not a fan of their recipe builder? Are there others you’d recommend? Also, fwiw, I mostly use it to plan for desired malt/hops balance, SRM, and OG. It seems decent at predicting those parameters. I pretty much expect to learn what flavors to expect over a long process of experimentation with different ingredients. Descriptions are helpful, but rarely do the actual flavors come out quite like what I have in my head based on those descriptions.

I assume you;re adding the wheat for foam. You really don’t need it. Foam formation and retention is really dependent on yeast and fermentation techniques. See http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/ … techniques

OK, I thought maybe DH was dry hop, but I didn’t see how it tied in. My beef with Fuggles is that they’re earthy to the point of tasting like dirt. Just my opinion, but I’m not alone. Goldings have a more candy like quality to them. I think they’ll get stomped by the other hops. If I’m going to blend cultures via hops, I prefer hops like Mt. Hood, Tettnanger, maybe Strisselspalt.

I use Promash to calculate recipes so I can’t offer any suggestions about online calculators. All I can tell you is that I’ve seen a lot of wacky recipes come out of Hopville…maybe just coincidence. Wanting to learn about flavors is admirable, but I’d approach it differently. Start with a bit simpler recipe so you can assess the impact of each ingredient. Then brew it maybe 6-8 times, changing only one thing each time so you get an idea of how each change effects the outcome. If you’re an AHA member, I have an article in recipe formulation in the May/June issue of Zymurgy that outlines a few different approaches.

My first all grain[/url] was not particularly simple (and probably fits under “wacky” quite well), but I really like how it turned out. I’m gonna tweak it a bit and think I know how to make it just exactly perfect. My second one was the beginning of the process you suggest, and I call it my [url=http://hopville.com/recipe/1241431/english-ipa-recipes/kiss-ipa]KISS brew
http://hopville.com/recipe/1260138/american-brown-ale-recipes/chocolate-covered-graham-cracker-ale
. 12 lbs 6-row, 3/4 lb c-60, and Columbus @ 60, Centennial/Cascade @ 15, and Cascade dry hop. Will probably be more of a Pale Ale than an IPA. It should be ready this weekend or next.

My next brew
http://hopville.com/recipe/1272357/american-ipa-recipes/3cs-ipa
used the same grain bill as the one that started this thread, but the same hops as the KISS brew (albeit, a lot more of them). Now, I’m getting ready for the next permutation, but want to mess with the hops. I realize I should probably wait until one is done before brewing the next, but I’m impatient and I’m also working on improving my process/efficiency. That said, maybe I’ll just go with the KISS brew with 2-row (just got a sack) instead of 6-row, assuming it comes out drinkable.

Re: wheat, somehow I got the sense that it would both improve head retention and impart something of a summery/light flavor (probably due to wheat beers being common in the summer), but it sounds like such a small amount of wheat is basically going to only increase head retention/size, if even that. So, I’ll ax it. I’m also curious how I’ll like c-60 only vs. c-60 + Munich. I like maltiness, but not excessive sweetness, and another poster mentioned c-60 can be cloyingly sweet in larger amounts (1/2 lb or more for 5 gallons in their view).

I’ve poked around on AHA’s site (saw the thread during which you realized 1450 went prime time…cool to see :slight_smile: ), but for some reason I’m not a big fan of joining clubs. I might join that one at some point, though, as brewing is taking over my life (help!). If/when I do, I will definitely track down that article.

The C60 will not necessarily make a sweet beer…it’s how you use it and what you use it with.

Cool, I’ll keep that in mind (as well as your comment re: US-05 and crystal malts).

[quote=“Denny”]I assume you;re adding the wheat for foam. You really don’t need it. Foam formation and retention is really dependent on yeast and fermentation techniques. See http://byo.com/stories/article/indices/ … techniques

OK, I thought maybe DH was dry hop, but I didn’t see how it tied in. My beef with Fuggles is that they’re earthy to the point of tasting like dirt. Just my opinion, but I’m not alone. Goldings have a more candy like quality to them. I think they’ll get stomped by the other hops. If I’m going to blend cultures via hops, I prefer hops like Mt. Hood, Tettnanger, maybe Strisselspalt.

I use Promash to calculate recipes so I can’t offer any suggestions about online calculators. All I can tell you is that I’ve seen a lot of wacky recipes come out of Hopville…maybe just coincidence. Wanting to learn about flavors is admirable, but I’d approach it differently. Start with a bit simpler recipe so you can assess the impact of each ingredient. Then brew it maybe 6-8 times, changing only one thing each time so you get an idea of how each change effects the outcome. If you’re an AHA member, I have an article in recipe formulation in the May/June issue of Zymurgy that outlines a few different approaches.[/quote]

I actually did an IPA with fuggle and goldings, along with some others and it had a sweet and kinda flat flavor when I wanted bright and hoppy. It wasn’t a bad beer but I definitely used the wrong hops.

Was it just fuggle and goldings, or were other hops involved? My hope is that the Simcoe and Chinook will brighten it up, the fuggle and goldings to provide a kind of dark, dank undertone, and the Northern Brewer to kind of straddle both worlds.

If you wNt a dark, dank undertone, use Columbus.

Agreed on the Columbus. Can’t do the Fuggles or Goldings in any hop forward beer. Fuggles reminds me of a muddy pond. No matter your hop choice, as personal tastes differ. I would drop the 20 and 15 min hops. After doing the same recipe over and over, I have found I don’t like those additions. I do like the mega 5min to flameout charge.

Thanks Dog House.

Since posting this recipe, I have discovered that my first two IPAs, both of which use Columbus, Cascade, and Centennial but very different grain bills, are surprisingly good and dynamic. As a result, I’ve decided to keep things a little more broken up, at least for now. So, yesterday I brewed an ESB with the NB, EKG, and Fuggles. I actually messed up and added half as much Fuggles and EKG as I’d intended, so NB will likely dominate heavily.

It’s interesting that you bring up the mega 5 min - flameout additions. I find that I’m wanting to strike more of a balance between hop bitterness and hop flavor/aroma. I’m guessing moving some of the bittering additions up to much later in the boil would help with that. I sort of went halfway there with the ESB, which is why I messed up my late boil additions. The original plan was 1 oz NB @ 60 mins, then .5 oz Fuggles @ 15 mins, .5 oz EKG @ 10, and .5 oz NB @ 5. Instead, I decided to do .5 oz NB @ 60 mins and up all late boil additions to 1 oz. Unfortunately, I forgot to up Fuggles and EKG. D’oh! Maybe I’ll toss everything that’s left (.5 oz each Fuggles, EKG, NB) in for a dry hop.

Re: Fuggles, I’ve read a lot of mixed reviews. Maybe water profile has an effect on how much it tastes like “dirt”?

The description for fuggle sounds good but not what you think it’ll be. I made a recipe with 1028 and fuggle and holdings at 15. This tasted like tree bark with some soil on it, it wasn’t the worst but not what I was going for. Maybe if you load up on 5 minute additions it would be different?

Shipyard’s all fuggle IPA is ok in the bottle and pretty darn good on draft so there must be some way to use it successfully. If you have the option to use something else I’d do that. Columbus was mentioned. I loooove Columbus.

I have a bunch of fuggle. One of these days I’m gonna figure out how to use the stuff.

I ended up using a lot of it in a quasi-ESB the weekend before last…we’ll see!

I believe there is a major difference between UK Fuggles and US Fuggles.

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