I guess the first time I read Farmhouse Ales, I didn’t focus on the saison section as much as the biere de garde.
Was reading through it last night, and read that the QC manager at White Labs and several of his employees believe the Dupont strain to actually be a RED WINE yeast that had mutated/evolved to work in brewery conditions. That would explain its ability/preference to work at high temperatures, the ability to produce desirable esters/phenols at those temperatures, and NOT produce fusel alcohols – all things some burgogne/champagne-sourced red wine yeasts can do at temperatures 75-90.
Finally, one of the reasons this yeast seems so ‘sluggish’ to brewers is that the yeast needs a lot of FAN to produce these amazing esters and frankly, to work at all. Winemakers using very estery yeasts will add quite a bit of DAP (diammonium phosphate IIRC?) prior to fermentation.
Has anyone ever experimented with adding a lot of yeast nutrient/DAP to their Dupont fermentations? I know there are a few on here that consider 3711, 566, Belle Saison to be the TGI Fridays-ification of saisons and would ONLY use Dupont!
EDIT: Not sure if the book has been updated since the version I have, but at the time, 565 was the ONLY saison yeast available to homebrewers, so that’s the only one he spoke of. I believe I bought the book in 2010, before saisons really took off as a growing/popular style for US homebrew/craft breweries.
I have only used the Belle Saison, and I must say it is a fantastic yeast. However I was slightly disappointed that it took 3.5 weeks to get down to final gravity. As such, I would assume it would be a very good idea indeed to add yeast nutrient to try to help out this yeast as much as possible. More experiments would be necessary to confirm whether this has positive or negative effects on fermentation time and/or flavor. I bet the nutrients might speed things along slightly, and as for flavor, I have no idea what impact it might have, maybe none but I don’t know.
Not a fan of 3711. Simple to use and dry but really lacks character. Someone on the green board turned me onto 3726 (Blaugies) and I him a HUGE favor. Dare I say this, but I think my saisons with 3726 are better than actual Dupont. That yeast is crazy good and not finicky. Expressive, dry, and foolproof/fast. I ALWAYS have it on hand (it is seasonal).
If I were a purist using DuPount, I would trust your brewing instincts and follow the lead of adding some DAP. In addition, I aim lower for pH of my saisons and suspect this would be similar to a wine must. Lastly, I use 10% sugar in mine and the homemade candi sugar recipe I use utilizes DAP for the reaction…
That is a bold claim…but I believe you. We should do a beer trade and I can really believe you.
How many generations deep will you take it? I like the 100% brett saison I’m currently drinking, but all this has gotten me in the mood for something more traditional.
Isn’t the Wyeast version 3724? I won’t be able to try any of them until spring or summer but love the Belgians and always willing to try. Do like to keep it simple though so anything complicated is out. One of the reasons I also like the “high temp” beers so I don’t have to worry about refrigeration in warmer weather.
That is a bold claim…but I believe you. We should do a beer trade and I can really believe you.
How many generations deep will you take it? I like the 100% brett saison I’m currently drinking, but all this has gotten me in the mood for something more traditional.[/quote]
Maybe I should restate that: “I prefer my own saisons with 3726 over real DuPont”… Happy to trade but haven’t capped a bottle in years BUT that brett sounds killer. Not patient and too chicken to fool with brett. Blaugies:saison :: Conan:IPA. I only take it a few generations and grab a new pack each year.
Here’s some info from our book, written by Drew, the master of saison…
“If you find you’re having problems time after time with saison strain stalling, there are three primary culprits:
Not enough yeast
Not enough heat
Too much pressure in the fermenter
That last one may surprise you, but the scuttlebutt says that the two primary saison strains (WY3724 Belgian Saison
and WLP565 Belgian Saison) originally came from red wine yeast. Wine yeasts are incredibly pressure-sensitive and
will stall out under pressure that doesn’t bother most ale yeasts. To solve that problem, I use a piece of sanitized foil
slapped over the top of the fermenter instead of an airlock during most of the fermentation. When the beer approaches
completion, I’ll add the airlock. Since switching to the foil, I haven’t had a saison stall on me in years!”
Also, brett, depending on strain, is less fickle than Dupont and does not take as long if used as the primary fermenting microbe (different story if you are using it as a secondary fermenter).
I used Brett Trois which is very clean, the beer was done in 2.5 weeks with some temp raises. Its a big attenuator (OG 1.050; FG 1.004) and throws off a smidge of funk (wet hay), but primarily just bright fruity/tropical/light stone fruit esters. The big trick with most purchased pure Brett strains is growing up enough for a 5G pitch. You basically need as many cells as a lager, and the vials sold in stores contain about 1/5 (IIRC) of the cells that a sacc yeast vial would contain. I did 2 1L starters just for this 1.050 saison and still may have underpitched a bit. We are going to use the cake (I now have +/- 64 oz of slurry) for a 1/2 bbl brew with it.
I just hit this saison with gel a few days ago and am going to pull another pint tonight. I feel like it will be even cleaner tasting without the suspended yeast.
3724 is their version of the Dupont Yeast. Zwiller is referring to 3726/Blaugies, which is part of the “private collection” of special release yeasts from Wyeast.
A properly made saison is what God orders when he walks into a beer bar in the summer.
Gotta tell you I never heard about pressure and DuPont… That’s pretty cool stuff.
3726 is available now! http://www.wyeastlab.com/vssprogram.cfm
Really wish it was spring. That is why I keep it, so I can brew them for summer. Actually, I pretty much have one on tap all year.
That brett saison sounds “heavenly”. Thanks for the cliff notes. That is what I recall too. In another thread, a guy is doing a partigyle IPA to saison… What a great idea. Tempted to try it.
At the risk of sounding line an infomercial, that’s just an example of some of the great info in the book. I truly believe there’s never been another homebrewing book like this one.
At the risk of sounding line an infomercial, that’s just an example of some of the great info in the book. I truly believe there’s never been another homebrewing book like this one.[/quote]
sold. Does it benefit you more if I buy from somewhere in particular, or can i take advantage of my Amazon Prime?
Wait, and are you speaking of Experimental Brewing or Craft Beer for the Homebrewer?
At the risk of sounding line an infomercial, that’s just an example of some of the great info in the book. I truly believe there’s never been another homebrewing book like this one.[/quote]
sold. Does it benefit you more if I buy from somewhere in particular, or can i take advantage of my Amazon Prime?
Wait, and are you speaking of Experimental Brewing or Craft Beer for the Homebrewer?[/quote]
Experimental Homebrewing. Unless you buy it directly from me, everywhere else is all the same. You can get it form Amazon, Barnes & Noble, or our publisher’s website. There are links to all 3 at www.experimentalbrew.com. We just learned that the books are here early and should ship before the end of the month. If you want an autographed copy, email or PM me and I’ll send you a “book plate” to put in it, signed by both Drew and me.
Just an update on the ‘pressurized ferment’ thing and Dupont not liking it:
5 gallons of 1.050 wort, slight underpitch of 565, carboy hole was covered with tinfoil for the first 4 days (then a bung/airlock), fermented at 68* for 5 days, then raised to 78* for another 5.
Wort was at 1.004 after the 78*, haven’t kegged/carbed yet, but nice subtle esters and bone dry.
Denny and Drew, you have changed my saison-brewing life. THANKS!
[quote=“Pietro”]Just an update on the ‘pressurized ferment’ thing and Dupont not liking it:
5 gallons of 1.050 wort, slight underpitch of 565, carboy hole was covered with tinfoil for the first 4 days (then a bung/airlock), fermented at 68* for 5 days, then raised to 78* for another 5.
Wort was at 1.004 after the 78*, haven’t kegged/carbed yet, but nice subtle esters and bone dry.
Denny and Drew, you have changed my saison-brewing life. THANKS![/quote]
Happy to trade but haven’t capped a bottle in years BUT that brett sounds killer. Not patient and too chicken to fool with brett. Blaugies:saison :: Conan:IPA. I only take it a few generations and grab a new pack each year.