[quote=“CapnJB”][quote=“stompwampa”]
Like I said, we get a white film on all the bottles…on everything actually, because of the water. The film just shows up more on the glass bottles.[/quote]
This is the part that would alarm me. Tap water that leaves a film on glass doesn’t sound like something I’d want to brew with. If you just rinse a bottle in straight tap water with no sanitizer do you get the same white film? If not, I’d guess that you are either using the wrong type of sanitizer or using it in incorrect proportions.
What type of sanitizer are you using and how are you mixing it?[/quote]
A white film (lime scale) will form on glass when present in water at fairly low concentration. We typically want to brew with moderately hard to hard water for almost all styles. 50 ppm calcium is moderately hard water.
This white film is no indication that there is a problem. The thing that is more likely is that there may be significant alkalinity in the water. That is the component that most brewers need to concern themselves with. Hardness is good while alkalinity is typically bad.
I guess I’ve never experienced anything like that before. I understand lime scale can build up over time but to get a white film simply from rinsing it in tap water seems pretty extreme to me.
You said that you put your sanitized bottles in the dishwasher before bottling. I wonder if there is dishwashing soap residue on the dishwasher rack that is getting in the beer? As a precaution, I would replace any plastic tubing just in case it has a infection.
[quote=“twdjr1”]To take this more into a “my beer tastes funny” thread - what temperature are you fermenting? If it has a wine-y type taste that can come from higher fermentation temps. Also bready/cardboardy flavors can be due to the yeast and having it young. Some of the yeastiness will age out of it.
Also, keep things simple for your first batches. I’d really recommend skipping the secondary. Leaving the beer on the yeast for 2-3 weeks will really help the yeast clean up after themselves and will really help the flavor. This also helps eliminate a possible step of infection or oxidation.
And you mentioned “sanitizer”, what exactly are you using? I think all here would recommend StarSan or BTF Iodophor as they work very well, don’t impart any flavors, and are no-rinse. You dunk/soak everything in those, then let them drain and they’re sanitized. In theory rinsing would wash off the sanitizer and give a chance of picking up some bugs from the water supply. In practice the risk seems really low if you are on a public water supply. If you’re on a well then it seems the risk would be higher.[/quote]
I’m having a really hard time pinpointing the off favors our beer has. Every single one has the same off flavor though. It’s a back of the mouth/top of the throat flavor. It’s dry, and bitter. The aroma has the same notes to it. I like dry and bitter…but not this. Especially since every one of our brews tastes this way. To the point where if I blind tasted our porter next to our brown (caribou slobber) I couldn’t tell the difference.
We ferment in a dark closet on the corner of the house. It’s probably 60-70 degrees in there…maybe a litter higher on a hot day.
room temp is 70F but the beer will be 5-10F above that when fermenting because of the activity makes more heat. I to had the same off flavors that you are getting until I controlled the fermentation temps. Soon as I did the same beer made the same way tasted a lot better and no off flavors! I too thought it was the water that was doing it when I started brewing, tried to using RO water vers Tap and control PH level, still had the off flavors.
look in to getting a chest Freezer you wont regret it and no more wasted batches!
Why would that be a problem to keep the lid on while boiling?[/quote]
'Cause Denny said so! Seriously though, I believe it’s because you are trapping chemical compounds that are normally released by the boiling process. I’m sorry I don’t have an exact reference, but I know I’ve read that lid on for boiling is a no-no. If you’re worried about evaporation, just increase the volume of your water by a gallon or so to compensate. After a brew or two you’ll know exactly how much you lose in a 60 minute boil and it should be fairly consistant.
Hard water could be an issue as well, but would effect different styles differently; I doubt they’d all taste the same as you described. Have you brewed a variety of styles?
Careful about water softeners if you’re thinking of going that route, they add a ton of sodium…
[quote=“Mike_”] Room temp is 70F but the beer will be 5-10F above that when fermenting because of the activity makes more heat. I to had the same off flavors that you are getting until I controlled the fermentation temps. Soon as I did the same beer made the same way tasted a lot better and no off flavors! I too thought it was the water that was doing it when I started brewing, tried to using RO water vers Tap and control PH level, still had the off flavors.
look in to getting a chest Freezer you wont regret it and no more wasted batches![/quote]
Well it’s good to hear that someone else experienced the same!
How do you go about controlling temps then? Investing in a chest freezer isn’t an option right now…and even if we had one, we’d still have to temp control the chest freezer somehow…
[quote=“Demus”] Hard water could be an issue as well, but would effect different styles differently; I doubt they’d all taste the same as you described. Have you brewed a variety of styles?
Careful about water softeners if you’re thinking of going that route, they add a ton of sodium…[/quote]
We have very hard water…we brew at my brother’s house. We’ve also read that hard water is good for brewing though? We’ve talked about brewing at my house, but I have a water softener, and I’ve also read that those are bad for beer too.
We’ve done 12 beer so far, and about 8 different vareties. The darker ones have the worst of the off flavor. We did a Nut Brown, two oatmeail porters, a stout and a Caribou Slobber. All taste about exactly the same given the nasty off flavor.
The other lighter beers and the IPA were okay…but still had hints of that off flavor, which made them not great…but just okay.
Hard water would have (should have) made your dark beers better, not worse. So, I would lean toward some of the other suggestions and ideas that people have mentioned.
Also, +1 to easyclean NOT being a sanitizer.
CLEAN with oxyclean, pbw, easyclean, etc. and rinse.
Then, SANITIZE with Starsan and don’t rinse.
[quote=“stompwampa”][quote=“Mike_”] Room temp is 70F but the beer will be 5-10F above that when fermenting because of the activity makes more heat. I to had the same off flavors that you are getting until I controlled the fermentation temps. Soon as I did the same beer made the same way tasted a lot better and no off flavors! I too thought it was the water that was doing it when I started brewing, tried to using RO water vers Tap and control PH level, still had the off flavors.
look in to getting a chest Freezer you wont regret it and no more wasted batches![/quote]
Well it’s good to hear that someone else experienced the same!
How do you go about controlling temps then? Investing in a chest freezer isn’t an option right now…and even if we had one, we’d still have to temp control the chest freezer somehow…
[/quote]
lots of options but the easiest one is a chest freezer or a stand up freezer. Search the internet on what others have done. Many different designs.
+2 on the easy clean. The operative word being clean . That alone could very well be your problem. Use a product that specifically says it’s for sanitizing . I like Idophor (iodine) because it’s no rinse, and a trace of it in you beer won’t hurt you, in fact it’s good for you in trace amounts(think iodized salt). Don’t chuck your easy clean though; it’s a great product to clean with. For sanitizers to work the items must first be clean.
Unfortunately it could take several batches to work this all out, but given your descriptions I’m less and less suspicious of your water, It’s a great and easy suggestion to just use bottled though, as long as you know its properties. The descent brands usually have their mineral content on a web site.
Do you have a fermentation strip on your fermenter? They are cheap and tell you what you really need to know, the beer temperature. The yeast don’t care what the temperature of your fridge, house, closet or anywhere else is. The resuting temperature of the wort is what’s important. If an extra fridge or space in your current one isn’t practicale, you still have options. A shallow pan of water big enough for your fermenter to sit in with some cloth to “wick” the water up the sides can provide several degrees of cooling from evaporation. Also, consider strains of yeast that “like” the temperatures in the 70’s. I love Belgians, and there are many strains that even go into the low 80’s and taste great.
Hope this helps. Keep it up, you are learning a ton and might only be a batch away from solving your issue!!
[quote=“Silentknyght”]+1 Do not sanitize with EasyClean. Use Starsan, iodophor, or any other of the actual sanitizing product.
An astringent off-flavor may also result from over-steeping your (specialty) grains.[/quote]
I wouldn’t point at easy clean as the culprit. I brewed over 30 batches using Easy clean as a sanitizer.
Also, unless you have an extreme water Ph problem, you’re not going to get off flavors from the steeping grains.
You’re not drinking green beer are ya? What’s the oldest homebrew you’ve tried?
You definitely want to get the temperature into the low to mid 60’s to get the cleanest fermentation. I noticed a similar bitterness to the beers where I let the temps get away from me. Not the good hoppy bitterness that engulfs the entire palate but a kinda stick in the back of the throat, aspiriny taste. I noticed this taste in a few beers I may have sampled too soon.
Thanks everyone for all the great suggestions. In order to keep my process of elimiations short, I’m going to stick with the hard tap water we’ve been using, but make the following changes:
Use a different sanitizer (not EasyClean)
Invest in a temperature strip and try to keep fermentation temps in the low 60s
Good plan. Update us on your next batch. And remember, there’s nothing wrong with easyclean as a cleanser. It simply isn’t a sanitizer. Also, I’ve been amazed at how much a few weeks storage can change a beer. Give it a shot rather than dumping anything. You’ve got nothing to lose and just might find your results are better than you thought…
One more question…what’s a good way to control fermentation temp if we’re not using a chest freezer with temp controller?
We are going to put a glass of water in our two possible fermentation areas: the upstairs closet or the unfinished basement…which is cool and damp.
Based on those water temps, we are going to decide about investing in the temperature controller.
I think we are going to try a dry stout next…the darker beers have the worst off flavors, so if we can eliminate it from a dark, then the rest of our process should be cake.
[quote=“stompwampa”]Thanks all. The community here is excellent.
One more question…what’s a good way to control fermentation temp if we’re not using a chest freezer with temp controller?
We are going to put a glass of water in our two possible fermentation areas: the upstairs closet or the unfinished basement…which is cool and damp.
Based on those water temps, we are going to decide about investing in the temperature controller.
I think we are going to try a dry stout next…the darker beers have the worst off flavors, so if we can eliminate it from a dark, then the rest of our process should be cake.[/quote]
The most basic is just strategic placement in your house. If you have a room w a/c or a cool basement that’s best. A shallow pan of water will allow some limited adjustment with ice and/or cloth for wicking and evaporation. Also make sure you chill the wort to a little below desired fermentation temp, & keep a close eye on it until you get it stable. I think you get better results from a stable temp that’s a bit warm (but still in range for yeast strain) than cooler temps that fluctuate a lot.
Hope this helps…
