Hop stand only IPA

Good to see that someone else had similar results. It was also reassuring to see that my results were what I expected (being too bitter from a 70 minute stand). I would’ve been really confused if the 70 minute stand created a beer with low bitterness…

I bet some confusion stems from when someone asked a pro brewer how long a whirlpool takes. Total time is 70 minutes, however some of the wort is being direct to the chiller during that time and probably half cooled or better by 35 minutes (1/2 the time). I would think a 30 minute stand and then start chilling should be more accurate. So hopefully a heavy 30 minute stand/steep with a small bitterness addition is the way to go. I have done 30 minute steeps before and they work, but only with an once or 2. It will be interesting to see what the effects of a half a pound will do.

[quote=“zwiller”]I bet some confusion stems from when someone asked a pro brewer how long a whirlpool takes. Total time is 70 minutes, however some of the wort is being direct to the chiller during that time and probably half cooled or better by 35 minutes (1/2 the time).[/quote]As with most things in brewing, every brewery handles the whirlpool differently and times are volume- and throughput-dependent. I’ve seen a solid 60-minute whirlpool followed by another hour to get all the wort in the fermenter, for instance. And the hops you use for the whirlpool addition have an impact on the bitterness as well as your own palate.

Turns out this wasn’t such a good combo, IMO Pacific Jade is a much better fit for a lager as often mentioned in the description of it. The Pale Ale isn’t awful and certainly improves as it warms up but it isn’t something that I’d give guests. :lol:

Agree with Shade that there are so many parameters that likely have an impact it is probably easiest to just give some different things a try and see what works. For me it has been to shoot for 50% of my final IBU’s with a FWH and/or bittering addition, hop stand with a fair amount of hops for ~30 minutes and then dry hop with about that same amount. At least that is what has been working for me with the Pale Ales I’ve done that turned out well. I think Zwiller is on track for figuring out how things scale up for IPA’s.

Just finished reading IPA by Mitch Steele and in there he says isomerization happens at 185F and up. So a hopstand would give you bitterness as long as it takes to get down to 185F, I imagine. So, no reason why a hopstand only wouldn’t give one enough bitterness.
Also, he says Stone Ruination and Stone IPA are both done with a FWH addition and whirlpool addition, nothing else. I was surprised by that. Both super good beers.

I was hoping the missus would get me that book for me for Christmas… Thanks for ruining it! :smiley:

Good point. Temperature definitely is a factor. I have actually thought about stirring regularly to simulate the whirlpool which supposedly further encourage the positive effects.

Finally had a chance to taste a Stone beer on draft. World class. Not a fan of the bottles though but that is the same way for almost all IPA’s to me.

So what do you guys want me to do? Now I’m thinking 1.070 90% pale, 10% 40L crystal, 10oz hop blend (centennial, galaxy, simcoe): FWH to 25 IBU, boil, drop to 180F let 'er sit an hour but stir every 15 minutes.

[quote=“zwiller”]I was hoping the missus would get me that book for me for Christmas… Thanks for ruining it! :smiley:

Good point. Temperature definitely is a factor. I have actually thought about stirring regularly to simulate the whirlpool which supposedly further encourage the positive effects.

Finally had a chance to taste a Stone beer on draft. World class. Not a fan of the bottles though but that is the same way for almost all IPA’s to me.

So what do you guys want me to do? Now I’m thinking 1.070 90% pale, 10% 40L crystal, 10oz hop blend (centennial, galaxy, simcoe): FWH to 25 IBU, boil, drop to 180F let 'er sit an hour but stir every 15 minutes.[/quote]
Ha, sorry about it, it’s a good book, most definitely.
Maybe you should go with 95% pale and 5% crystal 40L, and do everything else you’re planning. Sounds like a delicious blend of hops. Not sure there really needs to be 10% crystal malt in there, but depends on what you’re going for. This seems a hop-centric beer, so I would suggest to cut the crystal a little.

[quote=“zwiller”]I was hoping the missus would get me that book for me for Christmas… Thanks for ruining it! :smiley:

Good point. Temperature definitely is a factor. I have actually thought about stirring regularly to simulate the whirlpool which supposedly further encourage the positive effects.

Finally had a chance to taste a Stone beer on draft. World class. Not a fan of the bottles though but that is the same way for almost all IPA’s to me.

So what do you guys want me to do? Now I’m thinking 1.070 90% pale, 10% 40L crystal, 10oz hop blend (centennial, galaxy, simcoe): FWH to 25 IBU, boil, drop to 180F let 'er sit an hour but stir every 15 minutes.[/quote]

why drop to 180? can’t you just throw in at FO and it will gradually make it to 180 over the hour (rather than making its way down to 160 or less? that’s what I plan to do this weekend, anyhow - just curious why you are dropping it first?

Yeah, I wouldn’t drop it first…let it naturally come down to 180 or so after flame out. You’ll get the isomerization of the hops then also.

Wish I was like some of you and could get some dextrins in my finished beers. I have no problems with even 20% crystal to my malt bills and I hate thick or sweet beers. 90/10 is my go to IPA bill.

RE: dropping to 180F. From the last IPA being overly bitter I think I have 2 choices: either drop to 180F and go the full hour or only do a 30 minute stand. In the last attempt I think hop flavor was still lacking pro quality. I would like to isomerize less hop oil from the 70 minute previous attempt and just get more oil/flavor to remain in the wort for flavor but I am sure bitterness comes along for the ride. I can’t imagine at 185F isomerization stops completely, especially with a boat load of hops sitting for an hour. I think Steele’s point was directed toward maximal isomerization. The few microwave hop experiments I did were well under boiling and the results were certainly bitter. I think it will take the pros an hour to transfer to whirlpool and by that time the temp is under 185F, so dropping it would just save time. I would wait but I bet it takes a while to drop on it’s own. Seems like PITA but willing to try something new. OTOH, right now leaning on the 30 minute stand since it easier and quicker and can’t imagine either process would give radically different results. My brew day is long enough.

That stinkin’ pumpkin ale ain’t curing my hop jonses.

Try putting some calcium chloride in there for a more rounded out flavor. Dextrins maybe isn’t what you’re looking for. 20% crystal is a hell of a lot. For a 1.070 beer, the alcohol should act to thicken up that body and mouth feel.

Regularly use CaCl but not in my IPA’s, might try that sometime… Even when I use it I don’t notice it having a profound effect on beers. Never have gone over 100ppm Cl though. I keep wondering if it is due to calibrating my working thermometer with lab thermometer not having a NIST cert.

Yeah, give it a try…don’t go over 100ppm though. Keep it in the 50ppm range. Let us know how it goes.

On deck tonight if real life doesn’t interfere: :cheers:

1.072 90% pale/10% 40l crystal. 8oz blend of 2oz centennial, 4oz galaxy, and 2oz simcoe. (cleaning freezer) 20IBU FWH and remainder for a 30 minute stand/steep, no dry hop. Gypsum to 150ppm SO4. Chico at 64F.

A thought I had about my crystal malt usage… I use Briess 2row brewers malt which I pick up sacks for a song at LHBS. Probably not the richest malt out there. Perhaps this is a factor.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CEkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brewingwithbriess.com%2FAssets%2FPDFs%2FBriess_PISB_2RowBrewersMalt.pdf&ei=KEOJUOWfMerD0AG65IHQDw&usg=AFQjCNFxBRmvq3wpbvK3vAG52VnDTlupRA&cad=rja

Also of interest, Mitch Steele will be signing books over a brewery not far from me over the weekend. Might be an early Christmas for me. :smiley:

Sweet man, sounds good. Not a fan of Briess malt myself. But I like the idea of the first wort hop and hopstand. I plan to do this on a pale this weekend with centennial, columbus, and simcoe. I’m excited to brew it. 3 gallon brew in a bag with pale, munich, and caramunich, ferment with WY1450 at 63F or so.
Beer!

I’d be fairly surprised if that doesn’t turn out a delicious IPA. Same kind of hop schedule I’ve been playing with on my Pale Ales, only you’re using a heck of a lot more flameout hops than I am due to yours being an IPA. I also have been using some dry hops too.

My favorite Pale ale grain bill doesn’t use any crystal, I’m using Rahr 2-row, a bit of munich and some carapils.

Got a keg of Pale waiting that is just cascade and centennial, all added at flameout with a hop stand and then a dry hop with them. Interested to see how that one turned out.

Just ran my numbers in bru’n water and I will need additional calcium since I am backing down the gypsum so I will be adding some CaCl. Final water composition will have 50ppm Cl.

Wish I could blow off the rest of the day and knock this one out since it’s 80 degrees here in Ohio right now.

Brew day went well, hit my numbers etc. Boy, those galaxy hops smelled great! Total opposite of dank, sugary sweet with some tropical fruit. Gonna have to grab the rest at the LHBS.

Some info I wanted to pass along. I didn’t write it down but on the previous beer but I swear the wort temp was still near 200F after an hour. I brew in the garage with door up. Was about mid 60’s during the steep/stand. This time I measured and at 30 minutes the temp was 202F. Extrapolate all you want but I don’t think with the lid on the temp will drop to the “safe” zone of under 185F in an hour…

Interesting. Mine cools to 180 or so in 30 minutes, if I remember correctly. But that’s with the lid off. Maybe I’ll keep the lid on this Sunday when I brew.

I’ve had Schlafly’s Tasmanian IPA, and it is very good. It’s made with Galaxy hops I believe, very fruity and sweet. I like it. Simcoe is my favorite hop variety though. Too bad it’s so damn hard to get a hold of .

[quote=“zwiller”]Brew day went well, hit my numbers etc. Boy, those galaxy hops smelled great! Total opposite of dank, sugary sweet with some tropical fruit. Gonna have to grab the rest at the LHBS.

Some info I wanted to pass along. I didn’t write it down but on the previous beer but I swear the wort temp was still near 200F after an hour. I brew in the garage with door up. Was about mid 60’s during the steep/stand. This time I measured and at 30 minutes the temp was 202F. Extrapolate all you want but I don’t think with the lid on the temp will drop to the “safe” zone of under 185F in an hour…[/quote]

isn’t that good though? i thought you wanted to keep it above 185 but not boiling?

I think the key to any stand/steep is the lid staying on so the hop magic is trapped in the beer and not lost. (if you smell it it ain’t in the beer)

If isomerization occurs above 185F and your hop stand stays above that the resulting bitterness will nearly that of just chucking all the hops in the boil. However, you get some flavor and aroma along for the ride. Maybe some folks will want this but I don’t want that much bitterness. I want maybe 50/50 bitterness/flavor+aroma.