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Hop Spider and Late Hop Additions

I started using a hop spider and have a question around late addition hops, like at flame out.

I have to remove my hop spider to get the wort chiller into the kettle so I feel like I am adding the flame out hops and then removing them with little time for the hops to be in the wort.

Should I leave the hop spider in for a period of time after flame out?
Should I put the flame out hops into the wort directly vs. in the spider?

Thanks, Ron

You can steep them for about 20… put the lid on though… You’ll try to keep as much air borne stuff from drifting and settling in you precious wort. Sneezles61

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Lately i’ve been chilling my wort to 170 degrees then doing my flameout hop additions. I seem to be getting better results.

Interesting, this discussion is similar to something that’s popped onto my radar screen in the last couple days.

These guys rightly point out that if your late-addition hops spend much time above ^180F after the boil is over, you may get a lot more isomerization/bittering than a calculator says.

I just did a hopburst recipe with everything added at 20min or less, and it probably takes me 20-30min before I get everything down to pitching temp, so I wonder how much this affects me.

The one wildcard that isn’t directly discussed is that I use a hop bag and I remove it from the kettle at flameout. I’m not sure how much difference that makes…are the oils already in the wort, so removing the hops themselves doesn’t matter too much, or is that not the case?

I wouldn’t bother removing hops.

I would dare to say, there will not be one good answer… On beersmith many years ago, there was a conversation with an older gentleman, and he was of the idea, that ALL hops give different effects with different temps… Even the rough ones became smooth at lower temps… Perhaps, then there becomes another quest… As if there isn’t enough to chase down!! :dizzy_face: Sneezles61

On the Homebrew level it is probably pretty negligible but you do absolutely gain IBUS the longer the hops remain in the wort while chilling, especially if you takes you a longer time to chill.

On the commercial level this is very a much concern as it takes significantly longer to chill the amount of wort they produce. This is also why most will go with a dual stage plate chiller (also to assist in chilling to lager temps). Another option is to oversize the chiller.

I thought he was talking about removing his 60 min hops at flameout

I really think its about putting 10 pounds of… in a 5 pound tube… :smirk: Sneezles61

Those too will continue to provide IBUS if remaining in the wort post boil. As you mentioned, I too wouldn’t worry about it too much at Homebrew level.

True but it’s not like there is infinite AA and the curves start to level off around the 60 minute mark.
I guess on the professional scale you would then need some kind of validation a AA as well because changes in a year’s crop would create massive shifts.

IBUS, unless scientifically tested, are actually a theoretical number.

AAs from yearly crop shift are a real issue in the commercial world. In reality we are talokning about using pounds vs ounces. So even a small shift can cause tremendous issues from IBUS to wort absorption.

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Wouldn’t it be on the same linear scale because you are also using a larger volume of water too? I have heard (don’t know for a fact) that scaling a home brew to match a brewery scale is an equal multiplication… short of the hops being backed off… but not by much… ? Sneezles61

Recipes do not scale linearly when you’re going from 5gal to 10bbl. It may get you close but you’ll have some tweaks to make. Then there is the obvious equipment adjustment and dialing in efficiency and hop utilization.

Well, not 60min hops, as I know that it makes less and less difference the longer the hops are in the boil, but talking about what kind of impact removing all hops at flameout would have on post-flameout isomerization and extraction of bitterness.

Since I use a hop bag, removing it at flameout comes for free, was just wondering if anyone’s seen any info on this.

You’re going to get less utilization, especially the later you add them. This will also result in less IBUS, theoretically. Plus, you’ll lose a lot of wort unless you can find a way to drain them effectively while at boiling temps.

BTW, I don’t care about 5-10 extra IBUs, but in the case of my hopburst beer, Promash has it at 42IBUs assuming it’s chilled to pitching temp instantaneously at flameout.

However, if we assume it sits near boiling temp for, let’s say 30min, before being cooled, that effect could be simulated by simply increasing the 15, 10, and 5 minute additions to 45, 40, and 35 in the software (that assumes we get full isomerization/extraction over that period, of course, which may or may not be correct).

That would land me at 105IBUs, so we’re not talking chump change!

Not sure we’re talking about the same thing–I understand fully what happens during the boil. The later the addition happens in the boil, the greater the effect of a fixed amount of time sitting near boiling temp after flameout, right?

As far as losing wort, I generally use pellets and use a hop bag, so losses are very modest and they’re the same regardless of when the hop bag is removed.

And that IS the answer that eludes all that chase it… Isomerization DOES occur… but there isn’t an exact determination as to how much… There are too many variables to pin point, perhaps even write a program, to present this… Albeit linear or amortized… What I read/listen to about hops and utilization never seems to be a constanant conclusion… Even the latest with Stan Hierynonomuos (forgive me for butchering his name) in one of his guest appearance on beersmith said that… AND thought there was going to be another paper out trying to help sort this out…
Its way too complicated to even follow for me… Maybe I don’t have to worry as much with lower AA BA hops I use… :dizzy_face: Sneezles61

Yep, I hear you.

I’m really just looking for one small piece of the overall puzzle–how much difference it makes if you remove the hops at flameout vs leaving them in for the entire time until the wort is chilled.

Suspect that’s no easier to figure out than the rest though…as you say, I imagine it makes some difference. How much is anyone’s guess :).

I do have one data-point now that my hopbursted beer is in the keg…it tastes like >42IBUs at this point for sure, but it’s also got a ton of hop flavor and decent aroma, which is what I really care about. Only been in the keg for about 4 days now, we’ll see how it ends up.

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