I’ve been wanting to dabble with a sour for a while now and I’ve decided to go for it and brew a gose in a couple of weeks. Here is the plan so far for comments/suggestions:
Target 1.044 SG, 4 SRM, 8 IBU
Fermentables
60% wheat
40% pils
Souring with Lactic
Perform mash as normal
Heat to 170 degrees and hold for 5 to 10 minutes
Cool to 75 degrees and transfer to keg that’s been purged with CO2
Pitch 2 or 3 different lacto strains (Not sure if these are all different – WY5335, WLP677, WLP672) and purge headspace of keg with CO2
Give it 3 or 4 days at 75 degrees (or to certain pH…?)
Transfer back to boil kettle and continue as normal
Do I need to boil for 90 minutes because of pils…?
Hops
Mount Hood…? @ 45 for about 8 IBU
Coriander (how much…?)
Salt (3.2 grams sea salt per gallon…?)
Yeast
Alt or Kolsch or Hefe…? and ferment as appropriate for chosen yeast
It’s a solid plan. I’d go with white labs’ lacto Brevis, or if you can find it, omega yeast’s lacto blend. Both should get about a 1-liter starter. As long as you’re using a pure culture, you shouldn’t have to purge with CO2, as lacto by itself won’t cause off odors.
Try to drop ph to 4.5 in your wort before pitching the lacto, as a protein that helps head retention is degraded by lacto above this pH.
I haven’t boiled Gose or Berliner Weiss, even with mostly pils malt. You can pasteurize at 180 for 10 minutes, and as long as you don’t go higher you shouldn’t get any DMS. I’ve been making a lot of these beers the last few months. 2 packs of US-05 rehydrated will complete fermentation. Be advised, if you do boil, most of the lacto strains produce ethanol and lactic acid, so boiling will drive off the ethanol produced. The dominant strain in omega labs’ blend does not produce ethanol, so if you can find it it would be a good way to go. I use 15g sea salt for 5 gallons.
I was going to purge with CO2 just to remove any O2 and ensure no issues with anything else taking hold.
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Try to drop ph to 4.5 in your wort before pitching the lacto, as a protein that helps head retention is degraded by lacto above this pH.[/quote]
Cool, thanks. Do I just knock it down with lactic acid if necessary?
[quote]
I haven’t boiled Gose or Berliner Weiss, even with mostly pils malt. You can pasteurize at 180 for 10 minutes, and as long as you don’t go higher you shouldn’t get any DMS. [/quote]
How do you get the IBU’s from the hops without boiling?
[quote]
I’ve been making a lot of these beers the last few months. 2 packs of US-05 rehydrated will complete fermentation. Be advised, if you do boil, most of the lacto strains produce ethanol and lactic acid, so boiling will drive off the ethanol produced. The dominant strain in omega labs’ blend does not produce ethanol, so if you can find it it would be a good way to go. I use 15g sea salt for 5 gallons.
Good luck! These beers are a lot of fun to make.[/quote]
Thanks, I found a place carrying the omega blend so I will grab it.
Does about 0.75 oz crushed coriander sound about right for 6 gallons?
No harm in purging with CO2. It’s important if you’re culturing lacto from grain, as some of the other bacteria along for the ride can cause bad odors. I actually kettle sour in a plastic carboy with an airlock.
Yep, drop the kettle ph with lactic acid.
I use mash hops for a couple IBU, but I think it’s somewhat unnecessary in the style. Historically they were probably there as an antimicrobial. If you want it, go ahead and boil. Just might want to adjust for the loss of ethanol.
I haven’t done a decoction with one, just a single infusion. I collect runnings as normal, adjust pH to 4.5 with lactic, and heat to 180F with the cover off and hold that temperature for 10 minutes. Chill to around 120F, transfer to a plastic carboy. Pitch lacto starter and place carboy somewhere warm or wrap in a heavy sleeping bag.
Once it’s at the right level of sourness, usually a day or two, rack it back to the kettle, heat to 180 again and hold for 10 minutes. Chill to yeast pitching temperatures and transfer to fermenter. You want a lager-sized pitch of yeast, so I’ve been going with 2 packets of rehydrated US-05. You don’t want to aerate at this point, unless you know for sure that your lacto is homofermentative.
Just FYI, you could just leave it in the kettle for souring, too, but I got into the habit of using a carboy since I was playing around with grain lacto cultures.
According to beersmith, 1/2 oz Perle hops in the mash gives ~3IBU.
So one thing I’ve read in several places is that the pure lacto strains available commercially are all optimized to work in the range of 70 to 90 degrees. (Looks like the Omega blend says 65-100.) These people say the recommendations for ~ 115 are for spontaneous lacto fermentation – like the handful of grain sour mash trick. Any thoughts on that?
So I was planning on about 80 degrees in a water bath using an aquarium heater. Maybe I’ll pitch at 90 and let it fall to 80 then put it in the water bath to keep it at 80.
Another thing I came across after you mentioned the Omega lacto blend was that one guy checked his gravity a couple of times after using it and it was unchanged, so this blend must not be creating alcohol. I think this means I could still boil it without a problem? Not boiling it is intriguing though, at least partly because if I do boil I’ll lose volume and probably only get 4 gallons to the serving keg.
Regarding the IBUs from mash hopping. Do you think the calculation in Beersmith is assuming a full boil after mash hopping? I did a bunch of research last night after you brought up mash hopping and I couldn’t determine how these calcs where being done and what assumptions (full boil, etc.) they were making in the calcs.
I did find people mash hopping without a boil but doing a decoction boil with 1/3 to 1/2 of the mash hopped wort in order to ensure at least some of the alpha acids are isomerized.
My normal wort chilling method is with an immersion chiller. You think it’s safe to use if I sanitize the hell out of it and keep it in the wort for the full 10 minutes at 180? Normally I boil it for 10 minutes.
Also, what kinds of things happen with the wort when there is no hot break and no cold break? Do you notice anything?
I ordered the omega lacto blend last night so the wheels are in motion!
The high temps for spontaneous souring from grain favor the lacto over the other microbes on the husks so they set up shop as the dominant microbe. The pure cultures, for the most part, work great at the higher temps and will sour much more quickly at 115 than they will at 80. It’s just that with the wild lacto, you want it to kick off as much acid as quickly as possible so it kills all the other nasties before it can take hold. It’s just a PITA to keep it that hot, so most don’t bother with a pure culture.
The omega blend uses l. plantarum, which seems to have a sweet spot at 80-90F, and is homofermentative. It also has l. brevis which is heterofermentative and likes the higher temps. If you use this one at lower temps, you’ll definitely favor the plantarum so any alcohol produced by the brevis will be minimal. Just FYI, you can also get l. plantarum probiotic capsules that work great if you decide to keep going with sours. And as a pure homofermentative strain, you’re free to boil this as long as you want without evaporating ethanol.
I’m not sure how Beersmith actually calculates IBU from mash hops. I wouldn’t be surprised if it did it incorrectly. I haven’t noticed any bitterness or hop flavor, so I wouldn’t even bother except I have a bunch of old hops to use up in the freezer.
I keep my immersion chiller in the kettle the whole time it’s heating. Temperatures over 160F, given enough time, will pretty much kill anything, and what survives the temperature is killed by the low pH. I’m probably going to pasteurize at 170F moving forward, too, as DMS starts being produced at 175 or so. 180 might be a touch too high. Your chiller will definitely come out shiny!
There’s a noticeable grainy flavor in the finished beer when it isn’t boiled that goes nicely in a BW. It’ll still clear given enough time. I have a BW in secondary for about 4 months now with live lacto and brett, and the top half is crystal clear. Every week the cleared line drops by about an inch, so I’m waiting for it to clear completely before bottling this one. But with the kettle souring method you’re using, you should have something bottled or kegged in 2-3 weeks.
I consider myself a rookie at these beers as well, so please let me know how it works for you! :cheers:
Thank you so much for all the detailed responses. I’m going to mull everything over and then come up with a modified plan in the next few days. I feel like I’m in a much better place now to make some decisions thanks to your feedback and some research I’ve done based on your feedback.
Regarding the Beersmith calc for IBUs from mash hopping: I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong; it’s just that most people mash hopping are still going to boil the wort, which I believe is how they’re probably calculating it.
porkchop do you have any good links regarding the temps that DMS is formed at? There seems to be an absolute ton of conflicting evidence and differing temperature estimates regarding the formation of DMS.
No, I don’t… Maybe some of the more knowledgeable folks on the board could chime in here, but my understanding is it starts converting from SMS to DMS in the 175-180F range.
My shipment of Omega lacto blend showed up Monday, 6/1. The microbes were packaged on 5/27, nice and fresh!
The lacto package says to make a starter if using to sour on the front end. Do you use a stir plate for a lacto starter? I’m presuming no since a stir plate helps aerate wort in a normal starter, but for some reason I find references of people using stir plates for lacto starters.
I’m thinking about racking the wort to a 6.5 gallon carboy instead of to a keg for the initial lacto pitch. How much activity should I expect from the lacto? Can I fill the carboy right up to just below the neck and just pop an airlock on, or do I need to give it some headspace like a yeast fermentation? I would like to sour as much wort as possible without fear of making a giant mess.
“Pitching at 120F is a bad idea with this blend. The bug doing most of the work in this blend is Lactobacillus plantarum. The best temp for plantarum is 80-90F. It does not work [as well] over 100F. Also, we regularly make a 1 liter starter with the Lacto blend for faster souring. Simply pitch the contents of the pouch into 1 liter of sterile 1.040 wort and let sit for 24 hours at 70-80F before pitching (no need to stir).”
Unless you get a lot of O2 in your wort before souring, you should be good to fill it to the top without fear of blow-out. Any CO2 produced should be minimal at best. :cheers:
Ok, I think this is what I’m going to roll with. Thanks for all of your help! I’ll report in once I start. (Probably in about 10 to 14 days as my water bath is in use as a swamp cooler at the moment.)
Gose
5.25 gallons, 1.044 SG, 3 SRM, 8 IBU
Grains:
60% wheat
40% pilsen
Souring with Lactic:
Perform mash as normal to collect 6.25 gallons
Heat to 170 degrees and hold for 10 minutes
Cool to 85 degrees and transfer to carboy that’s been purged with CO2
Pitch Omega lacto blend (from starter) and purge headspace of carboy with CO2
Put carboy in water bath with circulating pump and aquarium heater set to 90 degrees
Give it 2 or 3 days until soured to my liking
Transfer back to boil kettle and boil for 90 minutes
Continue as normal
Probably have to top it up a little bit with H2O post boil
Finish with US-05
Hops & Spices:
Mount Hood @ 45 fOR 8 IBU
0.75 oz crushed Coriander @ 5
18 grams sea salt @ 5
[quote=“JohnnyB”]Ok, I think this is what I’m going to roll with. Thanks for all of your help! I’ll report in once I start. (Probably in about 10 to 14 days as my water bath is in use as a swamp cooler at the moment.)
Gose
5.25 gallons, 1.044 SG, 3 SRM, 8 IBU
Grains:
60% malted wheat
40% pilsen
Souring with Lactic:
Perform mash as normal to collect 6.25 gallons
Heat to 170 degrees and hold for 10 minutes
Cool to 85 degrees and transfer to carboy that’s been purged with CO2
Acidify with lactic acid to less than pH 4.5 to give lacto head start and protect head retention
Pitch Omega lacto blend (from starter) and purge headspace of carboy with CO2
Put carboy in water bath with circulating pump and aquarium heater set to 90 degrees
Give it 2 or 3 days until soured to my liking
Transfer back to boil kettle and boil for 90 minutes
Continue as normal
Probably have to top it up a little bit with H2O post boil
After further reading, reduced the salt and coriander to 14 grams of each.
Also added the step of acidifying the wort to help give the lacto a head start and protect head retention (forgot about that), and noted that I will be using malted wheat.
I really really really want to use a kolsch yeast on this instead of US-05, but still trying to find more information about if it’s historically accurate for the style.
