[quote=“stompwampa”]Interesting…we have plenty of light DME sitting in storage. Are you saying to just measure out enough to make 2.5 gallons of water measure 1.040, throw it in a carboy, pitch the lager yeast and let it rock at room temps? That process with produce enough new yeast for 10 gallons of real lager?[/quote]Yes (unless you’re making a high-grav lager, in which case I would make a 5-gal batch instead). [quote=“Pietro”]As usual, I agree with Shade, except for the fact that I would make a small beer I could drink! Just brew a small batch of beer at this point. You will make a great sessionable thing to drink/cook with, AND grow plenty of yeast for your lager brew.[/quote]I suggest that for ales, but for lagers, unless you’re going to ferment at the correct temp for the yeast, I prefer to just ferment it out as fast as possible which could make a pretty estery beer (depending on the yeast strain).
Interesting you bring up a Saison - that’s the other batch we’re doing on Saturday - 20 gallon brew day! 10 Oktober, 10 Saison.
We only plan on pitching one smack pack of yeast per 5 gallons of Saison - this would seem to be the right choice since we want the yeast to do more growing than eating with this style, right?
I like the idea of a starter beer, but I think I’m leaning towards the 2.5 gallon starter for now - just to keep it easier.
To clarify, if I make a 2.5 gallon starter, I only need one smack pack of 2206 and let it ferment at room temp?
[quote=“stompwampa”]Wow. I’m glad I posted this before starting brew day on Saturday!
I seriously need a gallon of yeast for a lager? That seems pretty obnoxious.
Couldn’t I make a starter of one one smack pack, step it up once and put it all into a mason jar in the fridge and then make another starter the same way for the other half of the batch and pitch one mason jar into each fermenter?
I don’t have a stir plate either…the old shake-it-when-you-why-by-method is what I had planned.[/quote]
There is no way you;re gonna have the yeast ready by Sat. If the yeast isn’t ready, you’re no more ready to brew than if you didn’t have malt or hops.
[quote=“stompwampa”]To clarify, if I make a 2.5 gallon starter, I only need one smack pack of 2206 and let it ferment at room temp?[/quote]Yes. OG = 1.035 and you can help it along by picking up the fermenter and giving it a good swirl at least once a day. But as Denny mentioned, you’re not going to have this done by Saturday - if you’re set on brewing then, you should consider using one of the dry lager yeasts instead.
Haven’t picked up ingredients yet - so I’m not set on brewing on Saturday. I’d rather be patient than sorry.
Regarding the dry yeast - one packet is sufficient for a 5 gallon lager? What makes dry yeast more productive than liquid yeast?
Yeah, that’s the only time I break out the 5 liter flask. Because of the cool fermentation temperatures, substantially more yeast is required. If you can get it off the yeast cake for lagering, re-use the yeast on another lager so you don’t have to go through the process of making more starters.
I have two beers lagering using this yeast (vienna lager and maibock). My starter was stepped from a year old smack pack. I brewed the Vienna in December and the Maibock in January. The tough part is that I told myself wouldn’t tap those kegs until my b-day in May but damn, my willpower is starting to fade…
[quote=“stompwampa”]Regarding the dry yeast - one packet is sufficient for a 5 gallon lager? What makes dry yeast more productive than liquid yeast?[/quote]Yeah one pack is enough, there are lots more yeast cells in dry yeast. Probably want to rehydrate it though.
Interesting…any recommendations on a good dry yeast for an Oktoberfest?
Fermentis Saflager 34/70. Or s-23.
Never used either, but IIRC Denny hates one or both of them 
[quote=“Pietro”]Fermentis Saflager 34/70. Or s-23.
Never used either, but IIRC Denny hates one or both of them [/quote]
Haha! I think I’d rather wait and use the 2206 to get it’s flavor profile.
Just thinking out loud…
What if I started the mini-beer with 2206 tomorrow night and then pitched the yeast in a couple days?
Would the wort be okay to sit in the fermentation chamber at 54 for a few days if we still tried to brew it on Saturday?
[quote=“stompwampa”]What if I started the mini-beer with 2206 tomorrow night and then pitched the yeast in a couple days? Would the wort be okay to sit in the fermentation chamber at 54 for a few days if we still tried to brew it on Saturday?[/quote]A couple of days isn’t enough to fully ferment, cold-crash, and decant - a week is reasonable for this volume. I wouldn’t let wort sit for several days without yeast unless you do the Aussie no-chill method which guarantees at least sanitary conditions - this would be easy to do in kegs.
That’s what I kinda thought.
Better to not rush it.
We’ll brew the Saison tomorrow and the Oktober in a couple weeks once weekends free up again!
For this Sasion, one pack of 3711 should suffice for this style, right? Since the flavor relies partly on the yeast “growing.”
[quote=“Pietro”]Fermentis Saflager 34/70. Or s-23.
Never used either, but IIRC Denny hates one or both of them [/quote]
No, I think 34/70 is quite good. S-189 would be great for an Ofest, also. But S-23 is fit only for the trash IMO.
Good move on waiting on the lager. Why don’t you brew the saison and the starter beer on Saturday? That way your big slug of yeast will be ready for your Okfest in a few weeks, and you will have a damned delicious session steam style beer to drink on Okfest brewday.
As for the pitch rate on the saison, I would check on yeastcalc, knowing that you can underpitch by a little bit with saisons. If doing 10 gallons, I would absolutely still do a starter. In my mind, dryness is key on a saison, which you get from a good, healthy pitch rate. I prefer mine with subtle phenolics/esters, which suggests you should not underpitch…but then again you aren’t brewing for me :mrgreen:
According to Mrmalty, if you are doing 10g of saison, you need 2 packs in a 3 liter starter. You would probably be ok doing 2 packs in a 2 liter starter.
Clear as mud?
[quote=“stompwampa”]For this Sasion, one pack of 3711 should suffice for this style, right? Since the flavor relies partly on the yeast “growing.”[/quote]I hate to throw another curveball to you, but no, you actually want to pitch the proper amount of yeast to promote the flavors you desire in the beer - yeast is either growing or making esters, not both. Here’s one article that has some good info, but it doesn’t offer simple, easy guidelines, unfortunately:
http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/yeast-growth
[quote=“Shadetree”][quote=“stompwampa”]For this Sasion, one pack of 3711 should suffice for this style, right? Since the flavor relies partly on the yeast “growing.”[/quote]I hate to throw another curveball to you, but no, you actually want to pitch the proper amount of yeast to promote the flavors you desire in the beer - yeast is either growing or making esters, not both. Here’s one article that has some good info, but it doesn’t offer simple, easy guidelines, unfortunately:
http://www.danstaryeast.com/articles/yeast-growth
[/quote]
Thank you, thank you, thank you! People get that wrong so often that it’s refreshing to see someone post the correct info. Neva Parker from White Labs said the same thing in her seminar at last summer’s NHC.
yeah, sorry about that. My ‘underpitch’ stuff was probably ill-advised at best (and at worst, woefully inaccurate).
Always pitch the right amount. yeastcalc or mrmalty.
[quote=“Denny”]Thank you, thank you, thank you! People get that wrong so often that it’s refreshing to see someone post the correct info. Neva Parker from White Labs said the same thing in her seminar at last summer’s NHC.[/quote]You pointed it out on this forum a while back and I’m still trying to digest the info in that article - there are so many variables, especially when working with a yeast where you actually want it to produce flavors as opposed to most of what I make in which I want the yeast to step aside as much as possible.
Wouldn’t it be better to dump it in the boil toward the end as a yeast nutrient instead of just wasting it by throwing it away? 
Well my yeast pitching world just got turned up upside down.
Thanks everyone for the excellent info.
I’d probably have a mess on my hands if I tried that Oktober with only a single smack pack per fermenter!
