First Lager, Is this correct?

Brewing an Oktoberfest as our first lager this weekend.

The plan is to brew as normal, pitch Wyeast 2206.

Ferment at 52 for 3 weeks.
Raise to 62 for Week.
Lager at 35 for the duration of summer.

All on the original yeast cake.

OG projected at 1.057,not planning on making a starter.

Sound alright for our first lager?

[quote=“stompwampa”]Brewing an Oktoberfest as our first lager this weekend.

The plan is to brew as normal, pitch Wyeast 2206.

Ferment at 52 for 3 weeks.
Raise to 62 for Week.
Lager at 35 for the duration of summer.

All on the original yeast cake.

OG projected at 1.057,not planning on making a starter.

Sound alright for our first lager?[/quote]

Close. The beer will make it’s own schedule…might be done in 3 weeks, might not. Leave it n the yeast for the d rest, but rack to another container (I prefer a cornie) for lagering.

Won’t have any extra containers…any problems with leaving it on the yeast during lagering?

I would make a starter, unless it’s only a 3 gallon batch.

I would also recommend moving it to a cornie keg for lagering. There may, or may not, be a problem leaving it on the yeast for 3-4-5 months… never done it, so can’t say for sure. I go 3 weeks primary, 3 days or so D-rest, rack to keg and lager.

Also, make a starter… a single smack pack in a lager is not a good idea.

[quote=“Braufessor”]I would also recommend moving it to a cornie keg for lagering. There may, or may not, be a problem leaving it on the yeast for 3-4-5 months… never done it, so can’t say for sure. I go 3 weeks primary, 3 days or so D-rest, rack to keg and lager.

Also, make a starter… a single smack pack in a lager is not a good idea.[/quote]

I definitely agree with all of this!

[quote=“Denny”][quote=“Braufessor”]I would also recommend moving it to a cornie keg for lagering. There may, or may not, be a problem leaving it on the yeast for 3-4-5 months… never done it, so can’t say for sure. I go 3 weeks primary, 3 days or so D-rest, rack to keg and lager.

Also, make a starter… a single smack pack in a lager is not a good idea.[/quote]

I definitely agree with all of this![/quote]

Me too. Why take the risk and find out after 3-4 months that leaving it on the yeast cake was not a good idea. Clearly at lagering temps the yeast is not doing anything positive.

Alright…so we might have to do some creative racking between vessels since we don’t have any spare fermenters.

For the starter, we are making a 10 gallon batch.

Is a single smack pack in a starter enough for two batches, or should I make a double starter?

If a double, can I make it all in a single graduated cylinder?

Ahem, no.

Basically you would need about a full gallon starter for a 5 gallon batch. You need tons of healthy yeast to do good lagers.

So for 10 gallons, double that. At that point, you might as well make a normal, somewhat large starter and then brew a 2.5 gallon batch of a good lager, then after that finishes, split the yeast for the 10 gallon batch. Difference in cost is minimal and you get something out of it.

Have you checked Mrmalty.com for how much yeast you need?

There’s a pretty kick ass thread on the AHA forum about German lagers and some came to the conclusion that lagering on the yeast cake was actually really good. I don’t think 35 degrees for a couple months on the yeast cake would be bad. It’d be bad if it was a fermentation temperature, though.

If it were me I’d use 2 packs of Saflager W-34/70 dry yeast, starter problem solved.

yeastcalc is also a good one, especially for stepped starters which you will UNEQUIVOCALLY need.

If you didn’t make a starter, you would need TEN (10) smack packs of 2206 for this batch.

Do you guys have a stir plate? That is the best and quickest way to grow up starters big enough for a lager pitch (or ales IMHO).

A suggestion if I may:

I actually used this exact yeast for this exact style for my first lager. and it was awesome. But I used a SHIITELOAD of yeast, fermented about exactly on your schedule.

Since I didn’t want to screw around with a gazillion stepped starters, I decided to actually make a starter beer and get myself a nice slug of yeast for my first lager. I believe a great style to make with this yeast is a California Common (because that’s what I did and I am, of course, without fault).

You could make a really sessionable steam-style beer (or another ale, see below) around 1.040 with one vial/smack pack of 2206 (though if you guys are doing 10g, you need to buy 2 smack packs).

Here is the important part: You are going to do a decant the steam beer prior to pitching, so you don’t have to worry about washing yeast before you pitch the slurry into your Ofest.

Basically:
-brew your starter beer as normal
-chill to somewhere below 130 at a minimum
-run off into your sanitized fermenters
-stick both in the fridge overnight (if you don’t have extra, go buy a few extra buckets, they are cheap and worth having around), make sure the fridge is set to your desired pitch temp
-the next day, sanitize TWO CLEAN other fermenters. Dump from the first “chilling” fermenter (s) into the other one(s). You can vigorously pour them to get some aeration (though I would aerate more).
-There will be AT LEAST one gallon of trub collected at the bottom of the ‘first/chilling’ fermenters. Leave this behind
-Pitch your yeast after the wort has been ‘decanted’
-This will allow you to basically take all the slurry you need directly from your starter fermenters to pitch into your Ofest. (and as a bonus, you will have a very clear, trub-free session beer)
-I have fermented steams with this yeast starting at 60* for 3 days, then ramp up to 65 for 2, the 68 for another 2, and it is has been fully fermented, and it made a great beer.
-So you guys could brew some starter beer this weekend, and brew your O-fest next weekend theoretically.

I actually do this decant thing on all my lagers and pale/light-colored ales.

Other styles you could make as a starter beer with 2206:
-something ‘alt’-ish (dusseldorf or N. German)
-Any strength Scottish (obviously this wouldn’t be traditional, but it is awesome…2206 really bumps the maltiness)

Pitch rate is HUGE, equally as important as ferment temp, to make a good lager.

Clear as mud?

[quote=“Pietro”]You could make a really sessionable steam-style beer (or another ale, see below) around 1.040 with one vial/smack pack of 2206 (though if you guys are doing 10g, you need to buy 2 smack packs). [/quote]One pack of yeast should be enough to make a 1.040 - 2.5 gallon batch fermented at ale temperatures.

Wow. I’m glad I posted this before starting brew day on Saturday!

I seriously need a gallon of yeast for a lager? That seems pretty obnoxious.

Couldn’t I make a starter of one one smack pack, step it up once and put it all into a mason jar in the fridge and then make another starter the same way for the other half of the batch and pitch one mason jar into each fermenter?

I don’t have a stir plate either…the old shake-it-when-you-why-by-method is what I had planned.

You need way more yeast than that will give you. Yeastcalc.com allows you to put in stepped starters if you don’t just want to make a batch of starter beer.

And yes, lager yeast are indeed obnoxious.

[quote=“Pietro”][quote=“stompwampa”]

Couldn’t I make a starter of one one smack pack, step it up once and put it all into a mason jar in the fridge and then make another starter the same way for the other half of the batch and pitch one mason jar into each fermenter?

[/quote]

You need way more yeast than that will give you. Yeastcalc.com allows you to put in stepped starters if you don’t just want to make a batch of starter beer.

And yes, lager yeast are indeed obnoxious.[/quote]

I guess I’m not really sure what any of that means…all I know about yeast is the brand name of the one I’m pitch…so this is new to me.

Ok my bad—

So any time you make a beer, you want to make sure you have enough healthy yeast cells to ferment the sugars in the wort. Todays vials and smack packs are designed to ferment 5 gallons of 1.040 ale.

Once you start going bigger (either in terms of volume, or gravity/dissolved sugars in the wort), you need to pitch more yeast.

If you do not pitch enough yeast, the yeast will be stressed and will spend more time growing/reproducing than eating (you want them to do both, but most importantly, the latter). If they spend more time growing, they will produce lots of unwanted compounds and not have the strength to consume them later. Underpitching can lead to diacetyl (butter), acetaldehyde (green apple) and fusel alcohol (rubbing alcohol) flavors in your final beer, and the dreaded stalled ferment. Adequate pitches of yeast in both ales and lagers is as important as temp control in making good beer.

A stepped starter is a simple way to grow more yeast from one vial. Basically:
1.) pitch a vial/smack pack into 1 liter of starter wort (usually around 1.036 OG)
2.) let it ferment out
3.) stick it in the fridge (the yeast will settle to the bottom)
4.) pour off the spent beer
5.) you now have the equivalent of 2 vials/smack packs
6.) you can make another liter of 1.036OG starter wort, pitch your settled yeast into that, let it ferment, and now you have the equivalent of 4 vials/smack packs (someone double check my math).

With lagers, you basically need double the amount of yeast you would need for an equal OG ale, primarily because lagers are low 'n slow. Similar principle to needing more charcoal on a 15 hour smoke of a Boston butt than for grilling a few chicken breasts :mrgreen:

It sounds like you guys have a decent amount of brewing gear and are pretty into it. Do yourselves a favor and buy or build a stir plate for growing up the right pitch of yeast. It will make HUGE differences in the flavor of your beer, and make growing up a decent/proper pitch of yeast a lot easier (and frankly a lot of fun). Mess around on yeastcalc.com and/or mrmalty.com. When I realized how much I underpitched most of early beers, I became very focused on having enough yeast to ferment my favorite beverages.

:cheers:

[quote=“Glug Master”]One pack of yeast should be enough to make a 1.040 - 2.5 gallon batch fermented at ale temperatures.[/quote]This is the way to go, IMO - forget the “starter” concept entirely and just brew a small batch of “beer” and ferment at room temp so it’ll finish out quickly, then cold-crash and decant (you won’t be drinking this, so don’t bother with hops or any specialty malts, just use cheap base malt). Pitch half the cake to each fermenter (you could keep out a small amount of the cake for a later batch if you wish).

According to what I was playing with on the yeastcal.com site, to make enough starter for 10 gallons, it would take at least 4 step up in the starter to get enough yeast. Does that sound right?

I would imagine that all this yeast won’t fit into a 2000ml graduated cylinder, so could I use a glass growler…sanitized and foam stopped, of course?

As far as pitch rate - is it possible to OVER pitch yeast? If so, what happens?

You mentioned that today’s yeast packs are meant for 1.040 ales - most of what we brew is 1.044 - 1.057 ales - and we’ve never used a starter, and our beers turn out pretty awesome.

Are we getting lucky? Will our beer get noticeably better with more yeast?

Interesting…we have plenty of light DME sitting in storage. Are you saying to just measure out enough to make 2.5 gallons of water measure 1.040, throw it in a carboy, pitch the lager yeast and let it rock at room temps? That process with produce enough new yeast for 10 gallons of real lager?

Thanks for all the great info!

As usual, I agree with Shade, except for the fact that I would make a small beer I could drink! Just brew a small batch of beer at this point. You will make a great sessionable thing to drink/cook with, AND grow plenty of yeast for your lager brew.

To answer your question, it is very difficult to overpitch yeast on a homebrew scale. Some examples of where it might be possible is in beers like a hefeweizen or maybe a saison, where the style really depends on the character from the yeast growing.

As for your beers to date, it sounds like you guys have a good handle on temp control, which is huge in making good beer. Plus its not like you are woefully underpitching. For a 1.050 ale, you should be pitching 2 vials in a 2L starter (for 10g). Adequate pitches of yeast will only improve your beer further.

Since you brew 10g batches, maybe on your next one (after the lager), try splitting the wort into one 5g batch of 1.050ish beer with a single vial of yeast, and another with a simple starter (essentially two vials), and see if you can perceive the differences. The other thing starters do besides growing yeast is get the yeast ‘active’.

My vote is still to do a session steam as I posted before for your ‘starter beer’. Many of the greats say that they enjoyed their starter beers through the years more than the beers the starter beers were the starters for!