I seem to recall a scientist from Wyeast presenting at one of the AHA conferences and saying that the 1007 was an above average acidity producer.
Good thread. I regularly (unfortunately) forget to acidify my batch sparge water, and I wonder if that’s why some of my beers lack that extra special something-something.
Zwiller–what is your method for acidifying sparge water? I saw you cite a reference but not a link for more information… and I’m feeling too unwell to fish through Google results.
Cheers.
[quote=“zwiller”]
Dosing KO wort will work but I would prefer to do it a way that does not add another process to the brewday (sparge) but I can see that dosing KO could be more accurate. Hope to read of some new data points.
Maybe shoot wyeast an email?[/quote]
I had actually acidified my sparge water on two of the three batches that ended high. I think the benefit of acidifying post-boil is that you can dose more accurately since pH drop from the boil will vary.
Edit: the other benefit of the KO adjustment is that your wort is already room temp, so you don’t have to wait for the sample to cool.
Yeah, I nearly contacted Wyeast about 1056. I may just do that. I figured 1056 is used commonly enough that I should be able to get anecdotal feedback from brewers…but this thread doesn’t seem to be drawing much attention. It seems most homebrewers don’t care about pH of their finished beer. I didn’t until recently.
[quote=“Silentknyght”]Zwiller–what is your method for acidifying sparge water? I saw you cite a reference but not a link for more information… and I’m feeling too unwell to fish through Google results.
Cheers.[/quote]
Apologies if I’m speaking out of turn, but I believe Zwiller is referring to Sierra Nevada saying that they acidify their brewing water to 5.3. I’ve read that elsewhere in my “research.”
I also understand you should lower the sparge ph to under 6 to avoid extracting tannins.
Also if your mash and sparge ph are in the correct range your finished beer should also be unless you have a water problem.
My method for acidifying sparge is to match the mash pH. This stems from what KC pointed out, Sierra Nevada treating ALL water to 5.5 (not 5.3 though) Gordon Strong advocates the same as well.
…acidifying with… lactic acid? Phosphoric? I add brewing salts to my sparge water, but they’re salts, not acids…
I guess I was hoping for a better guide than just “acidify to x pH”. Is there one?
[quote=“DUNNGOOD”]I also understand you should lower the sparge ph to under 6 to avoid extracting tannins.
[/quote]
As a batch sparger, it’s not critical to acidify your sparge water. Currently, I only do it if Brun’Water suggests it based on my grainbill and water profile.
[quote=“DUNNGOOD”]
Also if your mash and sparge ph are in the correct range your finished beer should also be unless you have a water problem.[/quote]
Until recently, I also thought that was true. My tests have confirm this is not always the case. As Martin pointed out above, some strains produce higher and lower levels of acid.
I’ve contacted Wyeast to get their feedback and they’ve already responded with some questions. That was fast!
[quote=“kcbeersnob”][quote=“DUNNGOOD”]I also understand you should lower the sparge ph to under 6 to avoid extracting tannins.
[/quote]
As a batch sparger, it’s not critical to acidify your sparge water. Currently, I only do it if Brun’Water suggests it based on my grainbill and water profile.
[/quote]
What zwiller is pointing me to is that—while you’re correct that sparge acidification may not be necessary for mash/lauter purposes—sparge acidification may be nonetheless valuable to ensure that kettle/beer pH is appropriate.
[quote=“Silentknyght”]
…acidifying with… lactic acid? Phosphoric? I add brewing salts to my sparge water, but they’re salts, not acids…[/quote]
I use phosphoric acid, because it reportedly has less impact on flavor.
[quote=“Silentknyght”]
I was hoping for a better guide than just “acidify to x pH”. Is there one?[/quote]
I suggest using Bru’n Water for mash pH, but it looks like we need to figure something else out for pH of the finished beer if we cannot assume that pH of 5.2-5.6 will carry over into <4.6 in the finished beer. Apparently this is where it is particularly helpful to get to know your yeast through repeated use of the same strains.
KC,
Can you clarify what you mean when you say you only acidify sparge if need to per bru’n water? I am not aware of any sparge pH recommendations.
Silentknight,
Don’t think there is a guide to acidification of sparge water per se. I learned it from Dave Miller back in the day. He suggested acidifying sparge on all beers to 5.7 with phosphoric acid. For typical ales I use phosphoric acid. I use lactic acid for german lagers, but am interested in trying lactic acid to get mash pH dialed in without Ca salts, and sparging with distilled water on next one. In any event, your comment about sparge acidification being valuable for kettle purposes is well put.
As for not acidifying for batch sparging, based on my water (90ppm alkalinity) I need to acidify. I measured it a few times and it was well over 6. Preboil was high, beer was tubby, final pH high. Granted, it’s not like the beer was undrinkable and had to be dumped…
[quote=“zwiller”]KC,
Can you clarify what you mean when you say you only acidify sparge if need to per bru’n water? I am not aware of any sparge pH recommendations.
[/quote]
There is a worksheet called “Sparge Acidification” that you can use to configure your sparge water preferences. I keep my target set at 5.4. The results are included in the sparge column on the “Water Adjustment” and “Adjust Summary” worksheets.
[quote=“Silentknyght”]
What zwiller is pointing me to is that—while you’re correct that sparge acidification may not be necessary for mash/lauter purposes—sparge acidification may be nonetheless valuable to ensure that kettle/beer pH is appropriate.[/quote]
…and what I’m pointing out is that even if you acidify your sparge water, this may still be inadequate to ensure the right pH in the final product. Further acidification may be required depending on performance of the specific yeast strain. 
[quote=“kcbeersnob”][quote=“zwiller”]KC,
Can you clarify what you mean when you say you only acidify sparge if need to per bru’n water? I am not aware of any sparge pH recommendations.
[/quote]
There is a worksheet called “Sparge Acidification” that you can use to configure your sparge water preferences. I keep my target set at 5.4. The results are included in the sparge column on the “Water Adjustment” and “Adjust Summary” worksheets.[/quote]
Thanks, are there times bru’n water does not ask to acidify sparge? I thought the sparge acidification tab was just a calculator.
I won’t say acidification of the sparge liquor guarantees a beer with a final pH of 4.5 or less but if you are mashing at 5.4 and acidifying sparge to same and the final beer pH is way off, I would say something is amiss. Yeast autolysis/old yeast, alkalinity is higher than entered into bru’n water, or pH meter calibration. It’s one thing to tweak the final pH .1 or .2 units with acid and another thing entirely if you are off nearly .5 units.
Well my suspicion is at least partially confirmed. The Wyeast microbiologist I’ve been corresponding with wouldn’t go into details, but said that 1056 is not a high acid producer and suggested trying a different strain if I wanted to achieve lower pH through the yeast.
I am planning to brew a batch this weekend and will use 1056. I’ll be sure to get an obsessive number of pH samples throughout the brewing process, instead of my usual mash pH and occasional pre-boil pH.
:lol:
From Strong’s book and his extensive info of SN (1056), they aim for mash pH of 5.1-.5.3 and sparge with water of a pH of 5.5. To me, that’s 5.1-5.3 pre and 4.9-5.1 post boil. IMO that’s pretty low, almost lager range.
I took a look at Noonan’s pH chart and he shows a whole 1 unit drop from fermentation. I would say my experience is similar. Last IPA was 5.6 pre and I bet around 5.4 post boil, one unit drop to 4.4 and I would be happy.
One thing I am wondering is with all the rage about starters, what is pH of wort of the starter and should it be adjusted?
:lol:
From Strong’s book and his extensive info of SN (1056), they aim for mash pH of 5.1-.5.3 and sparge with water of a pH of 5.5. To me, that’s 5.1-5.3 pre and 4.9-5.1 post boil. IMO that’s pretty low, almost lager range.
[/quote]
My understanding is that lager yeasts are not big acid producers and their final beer pH is typically higher than seen for ales.
:lol:
From Strong’s book and his extensive info of SN (1056), they aim for mash pH of 5.1-.5.3 and sparge with water of a pH of 5.5. To me, that’s 5.1-5.3 pre and 4.9-5.1 post boil. IMO that’s pretty low, almost lager range.
[/quote]
My understanding is that lager yeasts are not big acid producers and their final beer pH is typically higher than seen for ales.[/quote]
I agree to a certain extent (lager yeast is not a big acid producer) and that is conventional wisdom, however I think lager brewers are forcing the pH down throughout the process so they end up lower. Certainly there is variation and is style dependent.
Here are the results from an APA I brewed on 3/9/2014. Fermented using Wyeast 1056 (800 ml starter).
Kettle: 5.45
Post-boil: 5.28
Post-fermentation: 4.54 (3/20/2014)
Total pH drop of .74 during fermentation. Just racked to a keg to dry hop. I imagine the pH will rise from here, since the beer will be sitting on a layer of yeast sediment.
It’s hard for me to judge how this beer tastes at this stage given the amount of yeast still in suspension. While I love the clean flavor this yeast ultimately leaves and the raging attenuation, it takes some extra time and cold storage to clear. I’ll report back on how it tastes in a few weeks.
I mentioned in a couple other threads that I took the finished beer pH of a few homebrews and also some commercial beers. It struck me that a flavor component I happen to like in pale lagers (especially from Europe but not necessarily) comes from a low finished beer pH. I must have asked a hundred times both at homebrew gatherings and on forums what that flavor was… bright, crisp, sort of fresh-cut-grass, snappy… it was a slightly acidic finish in the beer. When I was measuring the finished beer pH of these beers, some came in around 4.5, 4.3, etc. and then I measured Stiegl Goldbrau from Austria and it was 4.1. Then Pacifico from Mexico… 4.0. I know that neither of those beers interest homebrewers very much but the point is that there is something to learn there and there is a tool to stick in your toolbox. Kai’s pH page mentions all the good things that can happen when the kettle pH is right and all of the bad things that can happen when it’s high. But the finished beer pH may strictly be a way to get a certain flavor component. I have a couple of gold lagers in primary now where I targeted 5.2 - 5.3 for a kettle pH and my guess is that they will finish around 4.0 - 4.1 in the glass. Should be interesting.
