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Diacetyl

Northern Brewer General
#1

Hi all, my most recent brew tastes overwhelmingly of Diacetyl. It did 2 weeks solid in the primary and 1.5 in the secondary carboy, and is being tasted (as we speak!) after 2 weeks conditioning in the bottle. For reference, the recipe is…

6 Lbs. Pilsen Light DME
12 oz. Crystal 60
4 oz. Munich Malt
1 oz. Mosaic pellets @ 60 min.
1 oz. Sorachi pellets @ 30 min.
1 oz. Zythos pellets @ 2 min.
Fermented with Wyeast American II (pitching temp ended up on the high side, around 75 - 78 F)
Dry hopped with another 1 oz. of Zythos pellets for 1 week

I’ve not had any issue with Diacetyl flavor overwhelming before, so I’m not sure what to do. Can Diacetyl flavor cool off with time? Should I let it condition in the bottle at room temp. for a bit longer and try again? I’ve heard that sometimes Sorachi can lend a Diacetyl flavor, is this maybe the culprit?
Any thoughts / ideas / suggestions are greatly appreciated. Thanks much & cheers,

-Hisham

#2

You could try krausening…adding a qt. or so of actively fermenting wort to consume the diacetyl.

#3

Thanks, Denny! My Diacetyl flavored beer is already capped in the bottle, would it work to open them all up, pour it back into a fermentor, add some actively fermenting wort, and then re-bottle it later? Or is it too late to do something like that once the brew has been bottled?
Obviously I’m lost in the woods here, any further advice would be awesome.

#4

Since it’s bottled, it’s too late. About all you can do is hope it ages out.

#5

OK, thanks. I’ll let it sit and keep my fingers crossed.

#6

what temp are the bottles at? I feel like when bottle conditioning, diacetyl can develop since the yeast are again consuming. If anything’s going to fix it, keep them at 70* or so for another 2 weeks. If they’ve been cooled, warm them up and rouse the yeast a bit, which will give the yeast a chance to reabsorb the diacetyl.

#7

My second ever beer tasted like a stick of butter when I first tried it after 2 weeks in the bottle. Three weeks later, it had faded away until I couldn’t taste it with my admittedly blunt taste buds. Give it some time in the bottles and see if it improves.

#8

Have you experienced diacetyl formation after bottling that wasn’t due to an infection? I never have.

#9

Have you experienced diacetyl formation after bottling that wasn’t due to an infection? I never have.[/quote]

I haven’t purely bottle conditioned a beer in awhile, except my wit, but I waited 3 weeks on that one.

If I get impatient (and I usually do) and have a beer that has only been in the bottles for a week, I feel like I’ve tasted all sorts of intermediate compounds (albeit at low levels). In my mind, the suspended yeast consuming sugars (for bottle conditioning) is a very simple reaction. The “bottles will be carbonated in one week, but will really get ‘better’ after 2-3 weeks in the bottles” ideology is nothing more than some of the compounds that are occurring early on in that mini-fermentation going away as a result of yeast reabsorption. In other words “green beer” is just beer that hasn’t had those compounds reabsorbed or dropped out.

That makes sense in my feeble head anyway.

#10

Have you experienced diacetyl formation after bottling that wasn’t due to an infection? I never have.[/quote]

I haven’t purely bottle conditioned a beer in awhile, except my wit, but I waited 3 weeks on that one.

If I get impatient (and I usually do) and have a beer that has only been in the bottles for a week, I feel like I’ve tasted all sorts of intermediate compounds (albeit at low levels). In my mind, the suspended yeast consuming sugars (for bottle conditioning) is a very simple reaction. The “bottles will be carbonated in one week, but will really get ‘better’ after 2-3 weeks in the bottles” ideology is nothing more than some of the compounds that are occurring early on in that mini-fermentation going away as a result of yeast reabsorption. In other words “green beer” is just beer that hasn’t had those compounds reabsorbed or dropped out.

That makes sense in my feeble head anyway.[/quote]

Well, I’m glad it makes sense to you. To me, what you’re dscribing is normal beer aging and not a result of bottle conditioning. At least that’s my experience.

#11

So you don’t agree that there’s a fermentation happening when you bottle condition/carbonate?

#12

No, of course there’s fermentation happening. But IME there isn’t enough to have an impact on flavor.

#13

Not trying to nitpick, I’m just trying to make sense of the ‘green’ beer phenomenon that people point to as a nebulous, “I don’t know what’s going on, so I’ll just call it “green” beer”. If a fermentation is happening, it would seem to me that while they are mainly creating etOH and CO2, yeast might be creating a few other things as they would in any fermentation, later to be reabsorbed. The beer tastes great before you bottle carb it, and 3-4 weeks after, but not inbetween. The OP didn’t say whether he picked up diacetyl prior to carbing. I thought it would stand to reason that it could be an intermediate compound he was picking up. But to Denny’s point, its a pretty minor fermentation…

That said, I am obviously corresponding with someone who has likely hundreds of batches and definitely a lot more hours spent homebrewing/researching than myself, so no disrespect intended. :cheers:

AAAAAND I just re-read the question. Sorachi Ace. That’s your culprit I would bet. That’s a great hop, but its very tricky to work with. IME it works great in certain styles (saison, like Brooklyn’s eponymous beer), but its simply just a weird hop…that can DEFINITELY give a buttery taste/aroma along with the lemon/dill. I know as I tried to make a black IPA with it. Blech. I have never had diacetyl problems, aside maybe from really early on, but that Black IPA definitely had a buttery component. IIRC, it did fade with time as the hops themselves faded.

#14

Dude, I never take comments from you as disrespectful. We’ve had some interesting, thought provoking discussions.

#15

Nice! I’m all about ‘interesting’, and especially ‘thought-provoking’!

Just wanted to show respect where respect is due. Hopefully we’ll bump into each other @ NHC. I’ll be pouring at the Baltibrew booth on club night!

#16

Nice! I’m all about ‘interesting’, and especially ‘thought-provoking’!

Just wanted to show respect where respect is due. Hopefully we’ll bump into each other @ NHC. I’ll be pouring at the Baltibrew booth on club night![/quote]

Either find me or remind me later about your booth.

#17

Thanks all for sharing your wealth of experience! To answer a couple of questions ----

The beer is being bottle conditioned at between 66 - 70 degrees.

I did not pick up any diacetyl flavors prior to bottling, however after the first ferment and prior to bottling, the beer had a very mango/lychee type flavor to it (my assumption is from the Sorachi hops, as I’ve heard that they can add this flavor), but it did not taste buttery at all until having been in the bottle.

Hmmm - I’ll let it sit for another week or two and try again. I’ll let y’all know what I find out!

Cheers,

-Hisham

#18

Well, the culprit appears to be a lacto infection of some kind. It’s taken on a yogurt-y flavor, as well as that of green apples. Sanitation smack-down next time around!
Wish I could say it was still drinkable, but it’s really not.

Thanks everyone for weighing in with your advice.
Cheers!

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