Creating Off Flavors after Primary

[TomW]

Ugh!!!
my “2017 AHA DIPA Winner” recipe was a complete failure.

Recipe called for transfer to Secondary at 1 week then Dry Hopping for 2 with a lot of hops.
Recipe even called for 2nd Dry Hop session.

Things I usually never do:
1.) Transfer to 2nd after 1 week (after 2 at least)
2.) Dry Hop for 2 weeks (only 1)

Beer tasted good after 1 week and very hoppy (what I expected).
Two weeks later, ugh.

Sanitized everything as always.
I believe it somehow got infected…

I used SS Can for Dry Hopping vs. Hop Bag (which I have done in the past).

Usually takes 1 taste to know when a batch has gone bad.

[voodoo_donut]

@TomW I am curious as to why you think it is infected…I don’t think (substantial)infection occurs as often as homebrewers think. Especially with very hoppy beers. Oxidation would be more likely. (See recent NEIPA thread)
So what exactly was wrong with the beer?

[TomW]

You may be correct Voodoo.
The beer was fine after 1 week fermentation.
Tasted very bitter but good.

It was after 2 weeks in Dry Hop that the beer turned bad.
I never do that, never more than 1 week in dry hop.
I am not very good at distinguishing off flavors.
I just could not drink/sample it (almost vomited)…

I have not had a bad batch in over 2 years and I follow the same procedures.

Steps taken after Primary for 1 week:
1.) Sanitized (w/ StarSan) transfer hose, two 5 Gallon Carboys, two SS Hop Cans
2.) Transfer into 2 vessels as I had plans to do different things to it (experiment) for 2nd dry hop session (see recipe)
I could have easily just transferred it to one 5 gallon carboy…
3.) Let sit for two weeks
4.) Sampled it and discovered that it went bad (both did)

Last time my neighbor dry hopped for > 2 weeks,
his tasted bad as well. Perhaps the same taste/same issue.
Does anyone have any experience with dry hopping more than 1 week?

2017 winner AHA Double IPA Recipe:

• For 5 gallons (18.9 L)
• 14.19 lb (6.44 kg) Briess brewers malt
• 0.75 lb (340 g) dextrose (e.g. Corn Sugar)
• 0.64 lb (290 g) Briess 40° L crystal malt
• 0.64 lb (290 g) Briess dextrin malt ( e.g. Carapils)
• 3.7 oz (105 g) Columbus hops, 13.1% a.a. (90 min.)
• 0.8 oz (23 g) Columbus hops, 13.1% a.a. (45 min.)
• 1 oz (28 g) Simcoe hops, 13.5% a.a. (30 min.)
• 2.5 oz (71 g) Simcoe hops, 13.5% a.a. (0 min.)
• 1 oz (28 g) Centennial hops, 8.8% a.a. (0 min.)
• 1 oz (28 g) Centennial hops, 8.8% a.a. (dry hop 14 days)
• 1 oz (28 g) Columbus hops, 13.1% a.a. (dry hop 14 days)
• 1 oz (28 g) Simcoe hops, 13.5% a.a. (dry hop 14 days)
• 0.25 oz (7 g) Centennial hops, 8.8% a.a. (dry hop 5 days)
• 0.25 oz (7 g) Columbus hops, 13.1% a.a. (dry hop 5 days)
• 0.25 oz (7 g) Simcoe hops, 13.5% a.a. (dry hop 5 days)
• 1.5 L starter White Labs WLP001 California ale yeast
• 0.5 tsp yeast energizer (in starter) - did not do
• 2 tsp calcium chloride - did not do
• 4 oz (113 g) corn sugar to prime - did not do
Specifications
• Original Gravity: 1.075
• Final Gravity: 1.008

Directions
Mash at 150°F (65°C) for 90 minutes. Mash out at 168°F (76°C) for 10 minutes.
Primary Fermentation: 8 days at 72°F (22°C).
Secondary Fermentation: 14 days at 65°F (18°C). <----went bad after this
Tertiary Fermentation: 5 days at 65°F (18°C).

[uncdeo]

Do you keg? Why not skip secondary…one dry hop in primary and one in keg?

[voodoo_donut]

The primary fermentation temps are higher than I would do…I ferment ales around 62*-64*. But oxidation still would be more likely I would think…was the appearance of the beer ok? (again referencing the excellent photos of an oxidized NEIPA from that recent thread)

[TomW]

I primarily make IPAs, Stouts and Porters.
I do Keg and always dry hop my IPAs (usually with leaf hops)
but never more than 1 week. Makes a big difference in taste.

This last round I used Pellet Hops.

[TomW]

Please re-send the NEIPA thread.
Not finding it.
Thanks!!!

[radagast]

They are referring to This thread

Rad

[voodoo_donut]

Thanks, @radagast !

[TomW]

Voodoo,
I think you nailed it.

My wort was very brown in color after dry hopping and it tasted good after 1 week in primary.
It went into fermentation very yellow due to the tons of hops that I had used and came out very brown after the screwed up dry hop process that I used.

A combination of 2 weeks dry hopping in two 5 gallon wide mouth carboys (3 g + 2 g) must
have really done it in. Usually, my 5 gallon wide mouth 2nd vessels are filled to the rim.
Not much surface area for oxidation to occur.

I wonder if more hops in the wort makes it even more susceptible?

It really tasted bad and I can spot it early in a batch.
When it happened to my neighbor’s brown I detected it and told him there was a problem.
He thought I was being a jerk but later he agreed with me as it got worse.
We are good friends and can deal with hard truths about the brew.
We are serving beer at a charity function this Friday.
He with an IPA and 2nd batch of Brown,
Me with a Vienna IPA and Porter (AHA winner).

I will pay very close attention to the dry hop process moving forward to prevent against Oxidation.
I will also redo the same recipe in the near future to prove out the theory and to return confidence in that award winning AHA recipe.

Thanks again to everyone for the valuable input.
This forum rocks.
Tom

[TomW]

Dry hopping too early combined with too much surface contact with air?

Search Results
Dry hopping is the process of adding hops to fermented beer. Oils from the lupulin glands of the hops dissolve into the beer, adding hop aroma to it. … **If oxygen is added to an active fermentation, acetolactic acid (produced by the yeast and excreted into the wort) will be oxidized into diacetyl.**Jul 9, 2013

[squeegeethree]

I would not worry about adding oxygen when dry hopping and I doubly would not worry about it during active fermentation (many prefer dry hopping during this phase for something called bioconversion). I also wouldn’t worry about Diacetyl in your ale. I try to make it in some ales and it’s a boogeymen that is really hard to make if you are following best practices.

You need to come up with some accurate descriptors when describing unwanted tastes. Check out the link.
Note: There are a lot of perfectly brewed beers that I think taste bad.
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-4/is-my-beer-ruined/common-off-flavors

[TomW]

What ever it was,
I could not drink it (the taste made me want to vomit).

Weird.

Again,
It was fine after 1 week in Primary,
And turned bad after 2 weeks in 2nd.

Sanitized everything prior to 5 gallon transfer.
Followed same procedure other than transferring to 2 vessels (for an experiment) vs 1.
Oxidation makes sense if oxidation taste that bad…

I have 10 gallons of IPA to transfer this weekend after 2 weeks in Primary.
I may leave 1 alone for a 3rd week and transfer the 2nd carboy for dry hopping for one week.
For the one left in primary, I may just drop a SS hop tube into it.

I also played around with 1 Gallon brewing using Safale US-05 (same recipe).
I was planning to bottle that with Priming Sugar ( to try it again after 2 years kegging).

[squeegeethree]

Oxidation doesn’t make sense in the time frame you are talking about. If it was several months old maybe, or a year old certainly. I have only ever tasted oxidation in my long term aged bottles and it was not the cardboard that people speak of but more of a sherry/leathery flavor that did not detract from the particular imperial stout.

If you had a vomit reaction then it was most likely an infected batch and your sanitation and particularly your yeast health and strain choice could be to blame.

If it actually tasted like vomit then that too is possible and atrributable to particular infections creating Butyric Acid.
Another handy link with more off flavors…

15 Common Off Flavours in Beer (and How To Identify Them)

[voodoo_donut]

The vomit reaction described troubled me a bit too, because even my oxidized NEIPA’s were drinkable, as the cardboard taste grew on me after awhile

I do believe that these massively dry hopped beers could oxidize a bit earlier than your timeline permits, as I outlined in the other post, they are just a different product.

[TomW]

My apologies,
It did not taste like vomit.
&

It tasted good after 1 week in Primary (very hoppy but good).
Something happened after the transfer to secondary.

Primary = 6.5 gallon glass carboy
Secondary = 5 gallon glass wide mouth carboy (but I used 2 as I had plans to mix up the 2nd hop addition)

When sampling it after 2 weeks in Dry Hop,
I had to spit it out as it did not taste right.
At 2nd sample a bit later (telling myself it is probably good and I just need to filter it),
I sampled it and swallowed a bit which caused a gag reaction lol, that is what I meant…sorry.

I wish I could provide a better description of that taste the beer had…

My neighbor had the same taste when he dry hopped way too long.
I suspected at that time that he did not pitch enough yeast and something else took over.
It just tasted wrong (no longer drinkable).

I am going to check my notebook over the weekend to see if I missed any clues.

Items which could have played a role:

1.) Dry hopping too long (2 weeks vs. 1)
2.) Dry hopping after 1 week in fermentation (lots of discussion on this one)
3.) Oxidation as I split a 5 gallon batch into 2 separate 5 gallon vessels.
4.) Maybe I used 1 week old StarSan (which I keep in a bucket in my garage, always change out with new batches)
5.) Using a SS Hop Can vs. Nylon Bag (but I have done this before without issue

Both my neighbor and I had the same problem when we dry hopped for more than 1 week.
For me 2 weeks, for him 3-4 weeks (he was busy and lost focus on his beer in 2nd).

[squeegeethree]

I knew what you meant I was just commenting that there is an actual vomit off-taste. Oxidation would not make you gag. You taste it all the time in various amounts in wines, sherries etc. If you’ve ever opened a bottle of wine not drunk the full thing and recorked and came back to it a day or so later you tasted oxidation. If you gagged from the process you described then the beer was infected or you simply do not like dry hopped home brews. Sampling dryhopped beers straight from the fermentor can often lead to you drinking small hop particles. This hop dust can leave the back of your mouth feeling prickly and can get in your teeth leaving a sharp bitterness that lingers. Suck on a hop pellet to experience this feeling.
Dry hopping for extended periods of time will not make a gag inducing beer. It is how IPAs were born when they were transported to India afterall and many people dryhop during active fermentation while others put hops directly into their kegs.

[TomW]

Another source of potential Contamination is the Auto-Siphon hose. I always clean it (best i can) and sanitize it but stuff gets stuck inside the hose so it should be replaced often.

Please keep in mind that I have not had a bad batch in 2 years…

In talking with a good friend of mine who owns a Brew Grain Store and will be opening up his own brewery
very soon,

He stated transferring to 2nd was very dangerous as you are exposing your beer to potential air born bacteria.

He recommended a transfer process using CO2 to push the beer out of Primary and into the 2nd vessel.
That solution required a racking tube as well (vs. Auto-Siphon). I flushed the 2nd out with CO2 prior to the transfer.

Beer out of Primary tastes Awesome.

See attached.

[loopie_beer]

I don’t think with the ABV and hopping rate it’s bacterial. I really think your problem lies in racking 3 gals and 2 gals to 5gal carboys. That’s a ton of headspace. Headspace plus O2 exposure from hops will equate to oxidation rapidly.

Heavy hopping rates are really prone to premature oxidation.

[TomW]

Ryecoe Clones

Left vessel dry hopped with Cascade using SS Can.
Right vessel dry hopped with home grown Chinook using Nylon Bag
Both vessels transferred using CO2 method.
I will keg them next weekend.