Can someone explain water to me?

Northern Brewer General
21

I’ll add my two cents here as rookie homebrewer who has gone through the extract > partial >all grain evolution very rapidly.

My first two all grain batches ended up being pretty bland and final gravity ended up being pretty high. I’m pretty sure the flavor problem–and maybe the gravity issue–are at least partially to blame on the fact that I used bottled RO water with no mineral additions.

The main thing I was afraid of with tap water was chlorine/chloramine. However, I’ve since learned that campden tablets can be used to effectively remove both very easily and very inexpensively.

For my most recent batch, I opted to use tap water. My municipal water report shows a profile that’s very similar to London–and I tend to favor fairly sessionable British ales. I don’t have a blank slate, but I have a pretty solid sketch to start with for the type of beers I like to brew. I have no problem adding a bit of gypsum, calcium chloride or whatever is needed to get close to the style profile I’m aiming for according to Bru’n Water. For me, this is simple (fewer additions necessary than with RO/Distilled) and it shaves ~$5 off the total batch cost.

22

[quote=“a10t2”]Anyone who thinks they’re saving money by home brewing hasn’t done the math. If cost is your driving force, then you have to stick to drinking commercial beers.

Once you’ve decided that money isn’t the driver (i.e. that this is a hobby), what difference does it make if you spend an extra $3 on water and salts?[/quote]

+1

between the constant upgrading, recipe price, experimentation, and failures, i haven’t saved a dime. plus messing with my water has improved my beer. and will improve any beer IMO

23

[quote=“tom sawyer”][quote=“Shadetree”][quote=“brans041”]

I was surprised when one of the brewers at Boulevard in KC, said they don’t treat their water.

[/quote][/quote][/quote]

This is very surprising. Do you believe them? I’m skeptical…but can’t think of a reason for them to lie.

24

[quote=“brans041”][quote=“Dan S”][quote=“Glug Master”]There’s a good thread at HBT on water:

[/quote]

I adopted the water treatment plan laid out in this thread 5 recipes ago and have had very good luck with it. I buy RO water from Wal-Mart (which comes to less than $4 per 5-gallon batch) and build from there. I think I got all of the sauermaltz, gypsum and calcium chloride I will need for the next year (brewing 1-2 times month) for around $10. I am a complete novice when it comes to water chemistry, but from first-hand experience I can recommend this regiment as a low-cost way to get into treating your brewing water (it’s very cheap and easy to implement). It costs me a few extra dollars per recipe, but I at least know what the water content is now and can take this information into consideration when troubleshooting.[/quote]

You are turning you $1 beer into a $1.25. I think that this is a waste if your just using the end product for your friends/family/self. That stuff can add up, but that is my opinion. Plus, just adding some additives to the water is not going to really give you a perfect water profile anyway, as all RO water is processed after the fact by different means.

Water chemistry is guess work at its easiest and a science experiment at its hardest. Why not just add something to your water at home? Then it will be $1.15 per beer, rather than $1.25. You will probably need to add less items as well. If you think about it, 25c is not much more for a beer, but if you’re going through 2 batches a month, that is $25 dollars a month. I would rather save that for a few months and buy a monster mill. Or do another batch each month.

Flavors are dependent on water chemistry, but I guarantee you that there is a beer out there that works with your water. There is a recipe that can be built to accommodate your tastes without the use of RO water and additives. Flavors are more defined by the ingredients you use, and how efficient your process is.[/quote]
I think you may have misunderstood me – if an average batch of beer wound up costing me $65 ($1.25 x 52 beers for 5 gallons) I’d have to find a new hobby!

The $10 or so for the additives that I mentioned are just a one-time investment that (by my estimation) will last me about a year, or 20 batches. That works out to about $0.50 per batch, give or take.

The $4 spent on RO water only adds about $0.08 per beer ($4 / 52 beers).

Not trying to split hairs here, and to each his own, but I’d hate for someone to overlook this method based on misleading numbers. For me, the extra $4.50 per batch allows me to brew a much wider variety of beers than my tap water would normally allow.

25

[quote=“a10t2”]Anyone who thinks they’re saving money by home brewing hasn’t done the math. If cost is your driving force, then you have to stick to drinking commercial beers.

Once you’ve decided that money isn’t the driver (i.e. that this is a hobby), what difference does it make if you spend an extra $3 on water and salts?[/quote]

I agree completely with the first part. No way this is cheaper than commercial. But I don’t’ think that’s necessarily the point. You can’t blame a guy for trying to keep costs down. If you save $3 bucks a batch and brew once a month, you’ve basically saved enough to pay for a batch (ingredients only)–assuming a standard gravity brew.

The other consideration that’s big to my wife: she hates to see me even recycling all those plastic bottles. She’d much rather that I don’t use them at all.

26

[quote=“kcbeersnob”]No way this is cheaper than commercial.[/quote]When you buy grain by the bag for $0.50-$0.70/lb, bulk hops for $6-$8/lb, and harvest your yeast, you can brew beer for significantly less than any commercial product (~$10 for five gallons of APA, or $1.20 a 6-pack).

For a more “regular” beer, using my house American Stout as an example, I spend $10 for base grain, $12 for specialty, and $6 for hops to make 12 gallons, so $28. If I have to buy yeast, add $7 (two packs US-05) for a total of $35. The classic commercial Am Stout is Shakespeare at ~$7 for 22-oz; even if I double the cost to account for equipment depreciation, that would make a bomber $1.00.

27

But you haven’t paid yourself for your time.

28

[quote=“a10t2”]But you haven’t paid yourself for your time.[/quote]OK - add $25 per hour for labor, say 12 hours total, and the price per bomber is now $370 / 70 = $5.28 per. But really, getting to brew beer is payment in itself - even if I didn’t drink beer I would still brew for fun.

29

I agree completely, but that’s what makes it a hobby, and why comparing costs to commercial beers is an apples-and-oranges thing.

30

[quote=“Shadetree”][quote=“kcbeersnob”]No way this is cheaper than commercial.[/quote]When you buy grain by the bag for $0.50-$0.70/lb, bulk hops for $6-$8/lb, and harvest your yeast, you can brew beer for significantly less than any commercial product (~$10 for five gallons of APA, or $1.20 a 6-pack).

For a more “regular” beer, using my house American Stout as an example, I spend $10 for base grain, $12 for specialty, and $6 for hops to make 12 gallons, so $28. If I have to buy yeast, add $7 (two packs US-05) for a total of $35. The classic commercial Am Stout is Shakespeare at ~$7 for 22-oz; even if I double the cost to account for equipment depreciation, that would make a bomber $1.00.[/quote]

$35 is a more normal situation I think, but you’re only talking about the base ingredients. Add shipping for those of us who find online sourcing cheaper than buying at the LHBS. Don’t forget to tack on the cost of other consumables like propane, bottle caps, yeast nutrient, DME for starters, priming agents, CO2 for kegs, etc. and your costs rise quite a bit. Then tack on the cost of equipment–and who among us can’t resist the urge to add new toys or upgrade old ones? I think it would take the average homebrewer a very long time to break even–unless exercising considerable restraint in equipment costs over time and sourcing ingredients in bulk.

Not to mention…how much of your beer do you give away?

How in do you buy bulk grain for $25 per sack? I want in on that!

31

For those who say that it is a waste of $ to adjust your water are making a pretty broad statement. The fact that tap water “tastes fine” is not enough to say it is good for brewing all styles. It depends tremendously on where you live and what your water profile is. My water tastes good - I drink it all the time. But, it makes terrible IPA’s and light beers because it has bicarbonate levels through the roof. Changing my water allowed me to brew my first good IPA’s in almost 15 years of brewing. It can make a HUGE difference, depending on where you are starting at with your water.

Also - significant difference if you are extract or all grain. If I was brewing extract, I would use RO or distilled water, because the minerals are likely at appropriate levels in your extract already. Using high mineral tap water will only serve to add excess minerals. All grain - depends on what you are brewing.
Read this:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15.html

Get a water test from Ward Labs - they have a homebrewing water test for about $15.

32

Some things I’ve picked up over the past couple of months:

-Extract has all the minerals it needs, so distilled is fine.

-You can probably make good beer without doing anything to your tap water, unless there’s chlorine and/or chloramine. If you want to make even better beer (how much better? I don’t know), then you can treat your water to optimize it for different styles.

Not sure how accurate these perceptions are, but for me, distilled + extract has yielded good results. In a few weeks, we’ll see what tap + all grain + water additions yields :wink: .

33

These are 2 to not use anyway. Nice link Denny, I knew about that crazy water wacky #'s listed below before and found numbers on all the ones available in my area but the water of youth brand was a shocker.

http://mineralwaters.org./index.php?fun ... arval=1885 http://mineralwaters.org./index.php?fun ... parval=936
34

[quote]I’ll add my two cents here as rookie homebrewer who has gone through the extract > partial >all grain evolution very rapidly. [/quote]That’s pretty much where I am, except I skipped partial mashing. I just find it really fascinating and read a lot about all grain until things started to make sense.

[quote]My municipal water report shows a profile that’s very similar to London–and I tend to favor fairly sessionable British ales. [/quote]Mine’s about as soft as Pilsen’s, but slightly more alkaline. Theoretically, my water’s suited for beers around 14 SRM. I went slightly darker for my first all grain, and while I was a little daunted by water additions, I took the plunge. It was no big deal, really, assuming the beer comes out OK…

35

I agree completely, but that’s what makes it a hobby, and why comparing costs to commercial beers is an apples-and-oranges thing.[/quote]

  • a billionty and eleven!
36

[quote=“kcbeersnob”]How in do you buy bulk grain for $25 per sack?[/quote]We buy grain by the pallet (last group buy was for 12,000 lbs) and chemicals and hops ride along with the grain with no shipping costs. There’s an economy of scale that puts the homebrewer at the level of the microbrewer as far as ingredients (grain, hops, yeast, CO2, chemicals, etc.) but you need to get a group of people together. It doesn’t make sense if you’re only brewing 5-10 gallons a month, though.

[quote=“a10t2”]I agree completely, but that’s what makes it a hobby, and why comparing costs to commercial beers is an apples-and-oranges thing.[/quote]It’s only apples-to-oranges if you leave out all the details in order to convince your spouse that it makes economic sense to make your own beer. :wink: If done correctly, brewing is a hobby that not only pays for itself but it provides endless hours of enjoyment even when not consuming the product.

37

Agreed on the last part for sure…I may never brew enough volume to pay for this, but I am having an absolute blast!

I know my wife will never complain about how much I’m spending, because this hobby costs about 5% of hers–even when factoring in equipment costs.

38

[quote=“a10t2”]But you haven’t paid yourself for your time.[/quote]None of my hobbies pay for my time. My previous hobbies of hunting & fishing were way more expensive than homebrewing. My well water is very hard & highly alkaline. It tastes great but makes terrible beer. Diluting with RO & adding small amounts of CaCl & Lactic Acid, make really great beers.

39

That’s the Hobby part of it, your time. But if your look at costs for ingredients, it is much cheaper than commercial. Also it depends what your time is worth. My guess is you’re expensive.

Including cost of a kit beer at $23+$4 for yeast, cheaper if you buy bulk grains.
Your time, estimated at $15 per hour. $60 for 4 hrs
Things you need every time: IE bottle caps, DME for bottling, etc… ~$5 estimated (Probable less)

Equipment, which has depreciation and capitol cost, but judging on craigslist you can get about %80-%90 of your initial investment (depending on age and type). There is not much invested on a basic all grain system. So we will say $2 per batch.

So assuming we are making a good batch which is possible to do every time, we are at about $34 per batch, yielding a conservative estimate of 4.5 gallons (48 12oz beers) we are coming in at about 71c per beer. If we add time on top of that (which is variable) we conclude $94 per batch, yielding $1.95 per beer.

Still comparable to a good beer from the liquor store. With $10 per 6 pack, or $1.67 per beer. The idea of Homebrewing being more expensive is false. Unless you’re a master brewer making 62k a year, but then you would be making more than 5 gallons.

Using initial estimates to buy water and treatment for it at ~4.50 per batch you are adding about 10c per beer. This is an increase of 14% per beer and 5% per beer if your paying yourself.

Perhaps it depends a lot on what type of water you have-- you cant make a drinkable beer from your own water source. But then you probably don’t like drinking the water itself. I think that adjusting water chemistry and buying water should be saved for a time where your fine tuning your taste rather than as a substitute to blame a bad batch on before checking with other variables.

So if you’re making the same beer all the time, go ahead and make some adjustments to the chemistry, but if you’re going to do it, do it right. Don’t just say, “Well yeast likes calcium, and my water might be low on calcium, lets just toss 5 grams in.” Find out the values in the water you use, and adjust accordingly. You will quickly realize that it will take a lot more work than really worth. Be sure to pay yourself for doing the calculations too!

I have yet to see someone in my area make a bad beer from their tap that wasn’t due to some other mistake in the process or ingredients. But then again, we are all probably drinking the same water.

40

Hey there Original Poster,
Simplicity is a wonderful thing but not always easy to maintain. (an old quote from Confusedus) :slight_smile:

I don’t really have anything to add other than to wonder if you got an answer to your question.

Cheers and Brew On!
VK